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Is it possible for my parents to move in with us? - Page 2 - Carers UK Forum

Is it possible for my parents to move in with us?

Tell us a bit about yourself here.
HW - if Rob's mum lives in her house till her husband dies in the care home, and then at some point she dies, still living in her own home, can the council THEN come back to reclaim care home fees from the mum's estate? (ie, are they just biding their time, or is the house totally 'safe' once both the parents have died, still owning it?)

And what about if Rob's MUM needs residential care before she dies? Can the council claim its value for her? AND then her husband (as she won't be living in it any more!)

I definitely agree to phone the LA's finance department that deals with this. I've just talked things through re my own MIL in care, and they were very helpful.

That said, check everything they say too! For example, I spoke to one woman (not in the finance department, but she'd gone to ask them something for me) and she ended by saying (we were discussing the scenario in which my MIL is utterly broke, and only the measly £14k she can keep for herself to pass on is left) re care home fees 'families will always have to make a degree of contribution'!!!!! (I took her up on it STRAIGHT AWAY and said NO. We have NOOOOOOOO duty of care towards our elders, and that's that!)
jenny lucas wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:36 pm
HW - if Rob's mum lives in her house till her husband dies in the care home, and then at some point she dies, still living in her own home, can the council THEN come back to reclaim care home fees from the mum's estate? (ie, are they just biding their time, or is the house totally 'safe' once both the parents have died, still owning it?)
If they have a charge on the house, they'll reclaim when the house is sold. Whenever that is. They can't claim while an elderly or disabled relative is living there, as far as I can see. However, they can afford to wait. A charge is registered (presumably with Land Registry) so the house can't be sold without them being at least notified. It may even require their permission, as with a mortgage.
And what about if Rob's MUM needs residential care before she dies? Can the council claim its value for her? AND then her husband (as she won't be living in it any more!)
OK, I'm editing this as I've spent an hour trying to find guidance on this situation. Take a look at the example in section 3.5 of this link:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/brandpartnergl ... on_fcs.pdf
As I read it, if the home is disregarded because an elderly or disabled relative lives there, and the person requiring care dies before that relative leaves the property, then the LA won't take a charge on the property.

However, if the relative permanently leaves that home (for example, goes to live in a care home), then it depends whether the the original person requiring care is still alive. Using Rob's predicament, if his mum ends up in care before dad dies, then, as far as I can see, the LA can assess them both and take a charge on the house for each of them. If dad dies before mum goes into care, then, as far as I can see, they never take a charge on the property in respect of dad.

Either way - expert advice will be needed! UK Carer helpline or/and solicitor, I think!
Grim - presumably, too, if Rob's mum, still living at home in the house that is disregarded, while the council is paying for his dad's care home fees, actually dies BEFORE her husband (so the house is 'vacant') then the council can swoop down on it and use its forced sale against the care home fees?

And can that claim be backdated, or is it just for 'ongoing fees' (ie, they can't back claim for everything they've spent on him, out of the value of the house?)

In the end, time and time again it boils down to gambling on the longevity of our parents. We can't be 'certain' at all, ever, it seems. Unles and until they own absolutely nothing.
jenny lucas wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:54 pm
Grim - presumably, too, if Rob's mum, still living at home in the house that is disregarded, while the council is paying for his dad's care home fees, actually dies BEFORE her husband (so the house is 'vacant') then the council can swoop down on it and use its forced sale against the care home fees?
I've seen mention of a 12 week rule, so that the first 12 weeks are disregarded, I can't say if it applies in that scenario. That apart, the blunt answer is 'yes'.

[/quote]
And can that claim be backdated, or is it just for 'ongoing fees' (ie, they can't back claim for everything they've spent on him, out of the value of the house?)
[/quote]

Take a look at "Sue's Story" on page 6 of this:
https://www.independentage.org/sites/de ... operty.pdf
"The property that Sue owned with her husband was not
taken into account when she had a financial assessment
because her husband still lived there (a mandatory property
disregard). Unfortunately, her husband’s health deteriorated
quickly after Sue moved into the care home, and he ended
up needing to move into a care home too.
This meant that there was no longer anyone living in the
house, and its value could be taken into account by the
council as part of Sue and her husband’s contributions
towards their care home fees."
jenny lucas wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:54 pm
Grim - presumably, too, if Rob's mum, still living at home in the house that is disregarded, while the council is paying for his dad's care home fees, actually dies BEFORE her husband (so the house is 'vacant') then the council can swoop down on it and use its forced sale against the care home
]

Not if Mum changes her will to give her half of the house to her children (or anyone else). It's hers to do with what she wants after death. It's not deprivation of asserts as it was her half. They can't do anything now about Dads half but they can protect Mums half should she die first

I posted on this topic sometime ago after going to a solicitors talk at local carers support. The instant one partner goes into residential home the one at home must change their will
Mrs A, thank you - that is a really useful thing to know! It doesn't affect me personally, but I do know of a family whom it would affect, very materially.

It's such a minefield, and every newbie carer blunders across it blindfold....

So, for Rob, it sounds like it's absolutely urgent and imperative that his mum changes her will to leave her entire estate (whatever that proves to consist of when the time comes - hopefully the house, or at least half of it!) to her children, NOT her husband should he survive her!
MrsAverage wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:31 pm
Not if Mum changes her will to give her half of the house to her children (or anyone else). It's hers to do with what she wants after death. It's not deprivation of asserts as it was her half. They can't do anything now about Dads half but they can protect Mums half should she die first

I posted on this topic sometime ago after going to a solicitors talk at local carers support. The instant one partner goes into residential home the one at home must change their will
But the will is only effective after death. The executor of the will must assess the value of the estate and pay all bills arising e.g. mortgage, funeral costs. The Local Authority is part of these debts. So the house is sold, the estate tallied up, the debts paid, and whatever is left - if anything - goes to the beneficiaries.

So, where a property is jointly owned by A and B, who are spouses. A goes into a nursing home and B is left at home, with no care paid by the LA for her. These are the potential scenarios:

no will by A
If A dies first, his share of the house goes to B.

will by A
If A dies first, his share of the house goes to B

no will by B
If A dies first, the house is part of B's estate and will be shared among her children, after all debts are paid.
If B dies first, the whole house goes to A

will by B, leaving her share of the house to her children
If A dies first, the house is part of B's estate and will be shared among her children, after all debts are paid.
If B dies first, the whole house goes to A

The reason for this is that the house is jointly owned by A and B as joint tenants. That's the normal arrangement. For B to be able to leave her house to her children (that is, change that last bit in italics to be identical to the outcome above it), the house will need to be owned as tenants-in-common. See this link:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... r-property

Now, the problem is, that both of the tenants (owners) of the house must agree before the change from joint tenants to tenants-in-common can be made. If A is not capable, then it can (as far as I know) be agreed by the person with POA for financial matters. If there is no one with a POA/LPA, then an application would have to be made to the Court of Protection for guadianship of A. I've been warned that's a lengthy and expensive (think thousands) procedure.
Am so sorry to jump in on Rob's post, but it does make for interesting reading and mirrors in some way my own predicament and goes to show what an expensive (both in monetary and health terms) minefield full time caring is...

As some of you will know, I have lived with my 91 yr old mother in her home for 24 years and been first a full time companion for emotional support after Dad died suddenly, then a few years later, I became her carer after she developed arthritis. I am an only child and Mother has no surviving relatives. She now has little or no mobility whatsoever, has to be lifted onto commode which is constantly by her side and needs 24/7 care - which I tried to provide myself until back end of last year when I finally crumbled under the strain to the point of almost complete breakdown.

I now have a lovely live in carer helping to take the load off the 24 hour pergatory that was. Obviously though this costs - so far we are paying £35K per year including the agency commission. Mother has enough in savings to pay for 2 years, plus she has pension, attendance allowance etc coming in which would cover another 6 months after house bills. I am trying to support all I can by paying food costs etc as my huge fear is that at nearly 57 I would lose my home, which is all I have for my own old age, having given up everything to care for my Mother in my 30's....and like so many of us, never thinking I would still be caring as my 60's loomed.

In the past 7 weeks I have have three bad cold viruses back to back and feel so run down it's untrue. It seems that although the burden of physical care is now eased a little, now, whilst awaiting Power of Attorney to come through, have yet more stress trying to juggle figures that don't meet. Mother doesn't 'want to know' re financial situation (thinks all carers do this for free like I did) and just has tantrums about not having new expensive clothes or going out every day. She thinks I am some sort of 'monetary prison warder' - but am actually at present going without food myself to feed her & carer to make the money stretch....:( I gave up my carers allowance because I now have help with mother.
I gave up my carers allowance because I now have help with mother./quote]

That can't be right, Diane - you are surely doing more than enough to get carers allowance. Please reapply!
HW - that is very helpful - thank you.

I knew that the issue of joint tnants vs tnants in common came in to it somewhere but wasn't sure how.

Re cost of Office of Public Guardian - yes, horrible (I'm not sure re thousands - certainly upwards of £400 to apply, plus fees, and you have to put a bond down against you embezzling the caree!) but even if it costs thousands, that's peanuts against half the value of a house, so probably WELL worth doing.

You say 'after all debts paid' ...BUT, surely the LA cannot secure a debt against the non-caree co-owner's share of the house, only against the half the caree in residential care home owns??