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Social Care FUNDING : GREEN Or RED HERRING PAPER ? Various Schemes And Utter Madness : All Together In This Thread - Page 3 - Carers UK Forum

Social Care FUNDING : GREEN Or RED HERRING PAPER ? Various Schemes And Utter Madness : All Together In This Thread

Share information, support and advice on all aspects of caring.
179 posts
As usual , searching for X and found Y ... good fortune I did ?

Extremely interesting Report from the Citizens Assembley in Birmingham ( June 2018 ) ... in .pdf format :


https://www.involve.org.uk/sites/defaul ... 20care.pdf


CONTENTS

FOREWORD

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

01. INTRODUCTION

02. RECOMMENDATIONS: HOW TO FUND ADULT SOCIAL CARE

03. RECOMMENDATIONS: TAKING ACTION

04. CONCLUSION

ANNEX A: WHAT THE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS FELT ABOUT THE ASSEMBLY

ANNEX B: RESULTS IN FULL



29 pages of almost PLAIN English ... page numbers left out ... they did not transpose well.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to any readers following this thread.

NO carers but ... some VERY INTERESTING FINDINGS AND RESULTS.

I won't spoil your appetitie ... time for a mug of coffee ... and peruse said report !

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Just finished reading through ... no spoilers ... read it for yourself.

Same conclusions reached IF said Citizens Assembly were entirely carers and carees ?

As for the " Social mix " ... the 1 in 4 element ... seriously overlooked !!!

Not by much but ... the emphasis would be different ???
Interesting thought ?

( For once ? )

Carers UK are said to be supporting social care funding by means of a " NI tax " on earned income.

Will their position be the same IF they were to ask all members for their views ... and the majority were in favour of , say , my proposal , of funding through general / progressive tax ( As was Carerwatch' view a decade ago ) ... ignoring recombining the NHS with social care for the moment ?

Interesting conundrum for them.

Do they speak for themselves ... or us ?

After all , it's our future ... not theirs.

The very last thing we want is for the politicians to believe that carers WERE consulted ... in reality , all one did was to ask Carers UK for their thoughts !!!
This is the Citizens assembly that was quoted in the latest release 're the green paper. I linked to it in a previous thread.

I am still concerned that the personal views of just 47 people is considered representative enough to base all future funding on

I have just visited a friend whose parent is in a residential home paying £5,500 a month, that's £66,000 a year. It is funded from various Trusts set up years ago. My friend and sibling have already inherited over £1,000, 000 each and the mother has sufficient capital to see herself out, even if she reaches 115. Under the proposals this family would pay nothing for her care, and nothing extra in NI as none of them work any longer.

It's all too easy to only consider the poorer of us. If someone like this family can easily pay for care, why shouldn't they be made to pay?
Yes ... the annex to the BBC report ... the Beeb concentrated the article on the news from the Government Social Care Committee.

Using the link supplied , the full sp on the ( Then ) forthcoming Citizens Assembly was detailed on this thread's almost twin sister.

https://www.carersuk.org/forum/news-and ... iews-28906


Results of the CA fall into this thread as funding was the main topic ... family carers hardly got a mention.

As for the present postion on future funding of social care ... reaction and proposals have been mixed.

I agree with the views coming out of the Citizens Assembly ... based NOT on the ability to pay but funded through general taxation ... a majority in favour of progressive taxation.

In essence , on par with the NHS.

A view put forward a decade ago by those of us within CarerWatch.

Using Council Tax was rejected as a source of finance ... no surprise there ... as were VAT and Inheritence Tax increases.

In addition , both I and they dislike the present system of having to sell one's home to fund social care.

Where I disagree is in raising a separate tax , and then ring fencing the proceeds.

As for the alternative view of a new " NI " type tax , based on earnings , said scheme would still be based on the ability to pay ... the 1 in 4 ( ! in 3 of family carers ) ... how do they find additional monies for the premiums ?

The more you pay in premiums , the more social care bought ... like life insurance ?

End result will be a system very much like the existing one ... the more you have , the more you can afford in social care.

Something our own supporting organisation has overlooked ?

Still ... only part of the bigger picture.

Firstly , recombine the NHS and social care ... then apply the new fiscal measures.

A view that can be deduced from the annex to the Citizens Assembly Report.

Changing social care funding without the recombination will only lead to more problems in a surprisingly short space of time.

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It's all too easy to only consider the poorer of us. If someone like this family can easily pay for care, why shouldn't they be made to pay?


How those with thicker wads than most marshall their assets ... into Settlor Trusts and washing offshore ... has always been the way for more than a century ... since Lloyd George became the first Chancellor of the Exchequer to go after wealth just over 110 years ago.

Until the Government , of either Party , ends this practice or at least , minimises it , nothing will change.

There again ... the priorities of Government ... to preserve wealth and power ... have been the way for since the days of the Tories and the Whigs ... which takes us back more than 200 years.

Even the reforming Labour Governmnet of Clem Atlee and co. immediately after the Second World War did not attempt to upset the apple cart ... the same Government that created the NHS and nationalised the mines amongst other industries ... for the benefit of all ... and not just the few.

Not only the Government in the UK , similar " Escape " schemes are lawful in other G7 countries ... the classic oil break for billionaire oilmen in the USA a prime example,

No G7 country wants to lose any advantage by going after capital as a potential source of revenue.

A reality facing any future Left Wing Government should it be elected with a majority.

Capital v. Government ... there's only one winner.

Capital has no country . nor loyalty ,,, it simply goes where the returns are best.

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Social Care funding ?

In reality , scraps from the rich person's table ... just which scraps to throw being the present debate.

Social Care itself ?

What the accumalation of those scraps provide ... the rich aren't bothered ... their power and wealth continues to grow ... generation by generation ... no NHS or social care for them.

THAT is the REAL problem.

Depressing ?

Welcome ... at long last ... to this Sad New World.
Time to get this thread ... and it's evil twin ... back on display near to the top.

A whole generation of family carers continue to look on ... many with bated breath as their homes could be in even more danger.

IN ESSENCE ... fund through general taxation ( Like the NHS ) or base it on the ability to pay ( As of now ).

Bearing in mind the 1 in 4 ... how will they pay if a variation of the existing schemes remain in force ?

The bigger issue remains the recombining of NHS and social care ...

.... and separate funding systems for each ??????
A little more from the archives ... Dilnot Report ... 2011 ... full sp posted earlier on this thread ... and what the class of 2011 carers on here made of it :

https://www.carersuk.org/forum/news-and ... cles-13064


Pleased to see that one Red at the time entered the thread !
Just to refine an argument made by Joe Public ... a non carer and reader of certain tabloids :

" Why should I have to pay for you to look after your parent / spouse / child who needs 24 / 7 care ? "


To which my answer would be :

" Why should I have to pay for you to have an operation free of charge in a NHS hospital ? "



Simplifying the arguments one way or the other out there often helps ?
Just a headline from the Daily Chuckle to add to the existing madness :

Make the over-40s pay a tax premium of £33 every year to cover their care in old age, urge councils

Workers over 40 should pay more tax to cover care in old age, town halls say.

Suggested a premium of £33 a year to raise £1billion to help cover care homes.

LGA also suggested means testing universal benefits, such as the winter fuel allowance and free TV licences, to raise £1.9billion by 2024/25.




So say the Local Government Association.

Oh well , gives them some publicity ... I suppose ?
One to keep towards the top ... given it's ramifications for the whole carer army.
A new version of the " Madness " currently being proposed for all and sundry who are NOT at the sharp end of social care :


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/96690 ... ss-altmann


Offer tax breaks, says ex-minister

BABY boomers should be offered tax breaks if forced to pay for care with their retirement savings, says a former pensions minister.

A Care ISA and tax-free pension pots should be introduced to help meet the punishing costs of old age, according to Baroness Altmann, and National Insurance from all workers should be used to pay the bill.


She said yesterday: “Millions of babyboomers have large sums in pensions and ISAs.

“If there are no new incentives the chances are they will spend their money before they reach their 80s and have little or nothing left for care costs.

“Incentives which allow people to keep some of their pension fund for later life – such as allowing withdrawals tax-free if paying for care – and introducing a new Care ISA allowance to be passed on free of Inheritance Tax as a care pot for the next generation could persuade people to save.

“These measures could allow each person to earmark a specific maximum amount for care combined with a cap on the amount people need to spend before the state steps in.

“I’m calling on the Government to urgently introduce new incentives to encourage people to build up or retain some money for care.

“In the longer term it would also be sensible for NI or taxation to make everyone pay towards social care so the burden doesn’t fall so unfairly only on those who don’t qualify for NHS help.”

Baroness Altmann’s call came as research found more than half (56 per cent) of those aged 70-plus blame the Government for the social care crisis.

As many as 49 per cent think the Government does not see older people as a priority and 42 per cent say the crisis has worsened.

A staggering three quarters (77 per cent) worry that the burden of care will fall on their children or family members.

The Daily Express’s Respect For The Elderly crusade is now calling for a minister for older people.

Jane Ashcroft, chief of not-for-profit care and housing provider Anchor, said: “Our research has found half of older people think politicians are failing on social care and are not prioritising their needs.

“Baroness Altmann is right. Long-term solutions that address the system are what is required. To align health and social care is critical in order to help alleviate the increasing strain on the NHS.”



Sounds fine ... doesn't it ?

How will the 1 in 4 ( 14 MILLION + ) ... close / at / below the Official Poverty Line ... " Pay " into a savings scheme when they have the daily choice of to eat / heat / keep a roof of some kind over their heads ????

ANY scheme based on the " Ability to Pay " is doomed to fail ... big time.

NHS is funded through general taxation.

Social Care ... ???

All together now !

Recombine the NHS and Social Care.

Fund through general taxation.

No more cancer treatment free but one's life savings needed to care for dementia and other related illnesses.

FROM THE CRADLE TO THE GRAVE.
179 posts