[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 585: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 641: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
Carers UK Forum • locked-in - Page 5
Page 5 of 7

usefull link.

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:18 pm
by Maxi
many thanks,i too will check it out in a while.certainly this topic has been one which is very clearly and not surprisingly,charged,loaded with great emosion on all sides.

i sence it has a great deal of highly charged feeling for every one of us,rightly-so.its the essence of us.i dont think its one anyone can be very cold about.its a very deep issue with very thought-intense views on all sides.theres not going to be any sort of final agreed position here,nor should there be.we all must be guided by our own views.

Maxi, you are absolutely right,

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:11 pm
by Brindleboy123
Maxi, you are absolutely right, very thought provoking, particularly as many of us will have had very personal experience. Sometimes our views or even beliefs can be overtaken when we are actually in the situation itself. I defy any parent to stand by and watch their child suffer uncontrollable pain when in a near death state. I believe it would be natural for the parent to ask for their child to be made comfortable. As we all know, when patients are given certain drugs to make them "comfortable" it is often a case that they may not regain consciousness. My husband has struggled with this for many years since his son died aged just 14 but the cruelty of the death that his son may have endured leads me to believe that the medical team did everything they could for the child and the decision was the right one. I personally believe that a doctor's role is not one of simply prolonging life but also to ensure that when, as has been said previously, life comes to its end, that the passing is as pain free as possible and the patient dies with dignity.

My dear Miss Daisey was terrified of all things and words Medical. However, when she was in hospital I believe she had accepted the fact that it was her time. Her body was telling us that it was closing down and there was nothing that anyone could do to prevent the process. I took the decision with the medical team that she should be allowed to pass peacefully. Of course, I could have asked that more and more medication was given, but all this would have given was the possibility of her death being more traumatic for her. Of course I would have loved to have had her with me longer but this isn's really what we want is it?

Thank you for raising the topic.



Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:55 am
by Maxi
its so easy,or then-again,far from easy,in a way,to be so clear about assisted suicide.
easy,yes,to hold such a position.to me,its clear,we can never let any law excuse one human being taking anothers life.
far from easy,for two reasons.

i honestly do agonise about this.you are spot-on,seeing any loved one suffering and that loved one seeking release,who knows what any human being might feel or do in that event.not easy.
but,no law should pardon or imune any of us from taking such a drastic step.i agonise in trying to say what i might do in those circumstances,but,i am very clear on the point that the law must never imune such an action as taking a life.

no one would ever wish it on anyone else.but,no law should ever prevent legal scrutiny of such drastic actions.

its not easy knowing,being anti-euthanasia makes me ripe for being on the margins.but,thats todays cynicle trend.

Brindleboy 123: I agree with

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:47 am
by farmer1961
Brindleboy 123: I agree with what you said about parents and their children suffering agonising pain towards the end. As a parent who may have to face this awful scenario one day, I would sincerely hope for empathy and compassion from the medical profession for my beloved child.

I think there is a

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:51 am
by MaryB
I think there is a difference though when someone is literally hours from death and nothing can prevent that to a situation of someone having a debillitating illness or disability such as MS and intends to depart before they become more incapacitated.
Doctors have been giving doses of morphine for years at end of life to make passing more comfortable but in the knowledge that it will slightly hasten the process, this seems humane to me and not really quite the same as right to die debate which imho is open to abuse.

I understand what you are

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:19 pm
by Brindleboy123
I understand what you are saying Vicky and can see where you are coming from but at the same time the giving of morphine or whatever other drug is administered to relieve the patient from the pain at the end of life is still, in effect ending a life prematurely. However, that said I do fully appreciate the difference between the ending of a life near its natural end and that of Assisted Suicide. Of course there is the possibility that it could be abused and that is why, in my opinion, it is so important that the issue is fully discussed throughout the country. I cannot however understand how anyone should have the right to over-rule another person's wishes. As LazyD shared the awful experience that her father and family are currently experiencing, I will cite this as an example. This dear gentleman had clearly outlined his wishes with a living will which had been correctly updated according to protocol. It would appear though that the medical team have taken their own decision that his wishes are not taken into consideration. Outrageous!



Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:05 pm
by Maxi
at the risk of repeating myself,as,i feel,i have written of this life-changing event in 2001,which shaped my opinions,firmed-up my,allready life-affirming stance on such matters,and,sadly,added to my belief in the cynicle,often-twisted logic of our species.before,i will re-cap.

on september 12th 2001,a close freind,overlooked by his gp,was rushed to hospital,to cut to it,he was given one month to live,cancer took him,he went on october 7th.i saw him fade,day by day.
his last day haunts me still.

i visited him that sunday morning on the ward,he was doped to the eyeballs on morphine.
a syringe the size of a bike pump was astride a mashine.

the nurse told me the mashine,not her,was time-releasing the morphine which would ease the mans pain,with the side effect of ceaseing organ function,or,put-simply:"Death".

the nurse,felt,she played no part in hastening his death,no,the "Mashine" did it.

i cant really write the words which i think about that attitude of detatchment,denial,etc.

yes,my freind was,maybe,very near the end,in-pain,all that.

but,with uncanny accuracy the doctor could predict his date of demise.the "Mashine",in easing the pain,killed him.

my point is simple,regardless of how any of us feel re-assisted suicide,for Gods sake,lets not be hypocrites.

Lets be open,up front,as a society,every single day such "Mashines" end lives.

you can try to twist it,but,truth is,its euthanasia,pure and simple,here,now,happening every day.

the rank hypocracy of loading the moral conscience of the thing onto a time-release mashine is staggering in its cynisism,that has shaped my thinking ever since.

I was allways pro-life,against euthanasia,but i add to this my utter disgust at the fact we dont even admit to what goes on every day in every hospital.

My late mother was on

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:29 pm
by Lazydaisy
My late mother was on a syringe driver,which is what you are describing Maxi.She was on it,with morphine,for four months. Nobody could tell when Mum was going to die. She was up and dressed until the day she died.
Your friend's Dr may have been a fantastic Dr,who could just look at his patient and see the signs of life leaving. And if he could see a man in a lot of distressing pain,then his first duty as a Dr would be to ease suffering.
I remember nursing a man(who was not on morphine),and before I went off duty in the morning, I said to the nurse I was with,"He isn't going to be here tonight."He died before I got on duty 12 hours later.When you see a lot of peoples lives end, peacefully or otherwise in hospital, you get to know when someone is near to death.
Some families are comforted by this,others are not.

My late father had the

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:17 am
by farmer1961
My late father had the great benefit of a morphine syringe-driver which afforded him a pain free and comfortable time before passing away after months of crippling gut wrenching pain. He was able to say what he wanted to those he loved and attend to matters that he didn't wish to leave behind for us to deal with. Yes, at the very end it may have hastened his very inevitable passing.


Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:57 am
by Maxi
all academic stuff now,but,for months prior to my late freinds addmission to hospital,he knew he was unwell,his gp told him it was arthritis,when pressed,the gp,with,a certain sick irony,in light of what then followed,told my friend:"Look,would you rather it if I told you it was Cancer?"

After several more visits to that gp,my friend,was sent for a blood test,when the gp got the results,oh then we got swift action,breathtaking in fact,off to hospital in a trice.

Thats history now.

BUT,I feel my point,still valid,is well made.HONESTY.Lets not kidd ourselves.Euthanasia happens every dayIn our hospitals.