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Changing times. - Page 2 - Carers UK Forum

Changing times.

Share information, support and advice on all aspects of caring.
Dearest Norman: I am afraid that i am a rule breaker and am proud of the fact, if i had not broken rules on many ocassions then my mother would have died alot sooner than she did,following rules are ok when they make sense and do not stop people caring for the sick, many times when my mother was in hospital they would not even pull her up the bed when she had slipped down,why?, because they did not want to contravene the health and safety rules, it did not matter that my mother found it easier to breathe if she was sitting up, never mind that let her choke. What do firemen do when they go into a burning biulding, do they say, Oh i am sorry but i may get burnt here, the people trapped inside will have to burn, thank god that service does not encourage its staff to act like that. I once also had a staff nurse tell me that the reason my mother had been left out of bed so long was that they were doing dinner rounds and that she would have to wait untill that was over, even though that same nurse had been given clear instructions to put my mother back into bed after her physio, the result was that my mother was left in terrible pain for several hours in that damm chair, what did i do, i picked her up in my arms and put her back into her bed where she was comfortable, sorry but i thought that doctors and nurses swear an oathe not too do any harm to the people that they care for, do not start me on rules and regulations, please.

Hi Tony, I don't intemd to lecture anyone on the rules. Unfortunately of you work for an employer, you have to obey the rules or face the sack.
I know several fireman, and am related to one. The local Headway Group meets monthly in the Fire Station. You will find that like the military who have Rules of Engagement, Firemen have very strict codes of conduct, which keeps them safe in their hazardous occupation. Many brave firemen have died despite the procedures that are there to protect them, they are heroes in my view.
I have been subject to rules all my life, be it the highway code, or codes of conduct and procedures for handling dangerous drugs. Without rules in these vital occupations there would be chaos.
A soldier has recently pleaded guilty to breaking his rules of engagement in Iraq, when he injured a civilian. That is what distinguishes an army from a mob.
Two of my sons served in the first Gulf War and the troubles in Northern Ireland. One in the RAF and the other in the Royal Artillery. Discipline and adherance to rules and procedures saved their lives on many occasions. For which as their father, I am thankful.
Since the abolition of National Service unfortunately, discipline and adherance to rules seems to have become unfashionable.
Incidentally Nurses do not swear an oath of any sort, except when they drop something heavy on their toe, or pick up a hot instrument from the sterilizer, they are people not saints. Doctors do swear a Hippocratic oath.
best wishes normangardner
Thanks for that information Norman, unfortunately I'm one of many with a bad back, too many years of lifting I'm afriad Image

I have been lifting my Mum for along time now and I agree Tony that many times when Mum was in hospital care I had to act against their hospital regulations in order to make Mum more comfortable, like putting her to bed when she was slumped over the chair or given her medication to calm her down rather than waiting on their times, the list goes on and on...

I am aware that any Care-Workers that come in to assist have to keep to safety regulations and I have insurance to cover anything that may happen in the home while assisting Mum, costs £84 per annum. But, if Mum was too slip down the bed there is no other way but to lift her up. But this insurance doesn't cover me the Carer... Image !

If I were to call the fire bridage everytime I needed help with Mum, I'd have to call 999 about 3 times a day... Image

Paula hope the cold is better, now don't you be getting any ideas this weekend Image

Take care
M x
Thanks Maryann: Norman i agree that there has to be rules, but sometimes one has to make the decision to break them for the good of others, and i am affraid that you saying that your family are or were involved in the military is fantastic,but again i say not all rules are too be followed like sheep?Obviously we are very much opposite in our views on anything to do with caring for people and no matter what i say you will go the other way, that is fine, let it be that way. Even in the military people break rules sometimes, that may be wrong but sometimes when a order is given that person giving the order does not know all the facts and therefore the individual has to make a decision, be it right or be it wrong.You say that you were once a nurse and i am grateful for all the work you must have done over the years in that capacity, but i am sorry to say that the standard of nursing staff today is not as good as it was, and therefore i do not feel guilty about putting the nursing staff down.I have people in the medical world who are in my family and most of them are leaving in droves because standards and beurocrats have ruined what was once a good service, now it is second rate.All the extra money that this government has spent has been wasted on managers and bean counters, what we need is more doctors and nurses who are trained to a high standard and that actually care about their patients, i have seen too much over the years with regard to my mother to know that what i say is true, and thousands of people would agree with me, i am sorry but this is utter rubbish , i think i will not bother anymore, good luck to you norman and i hope you continue your good work, but i shall not argue with you again.


I think we're getting bogged down a bit here.

999 is only used in an emergency - but half of all 999 ambulance calls are for falls.

Three reasons: 1) the person who is calling is unable to help the person who has fallen - picture my wife of somewhat smaller build trying to help me up. She's 7 stone lighter.

2) The risk of serious injury to the lifter. Think of it this way: I have a damaged back already. Lifting my father without assistance will only bu-er, ruin my back further. If I help him up and hurt myself in the process, who will help us?

3) The fall might have caused serious harm. My nan fell a few years ago and someone helped her up. For the next three days she was very ill. She'd broken her hip, and because no ambulance was called, she wasn't checked over by someone who knew what they were doing. My dad fell off a bus and broke his hip: fortunately they called a doctor to check him over and HE called an ambulance.

That's why I always recommend dialling 999: it's what it's there for.
Tony, I think you are taking offence unnecessarily at Norman's post.

Please re-read it and see that he is not attacking you.

Regards, snoopy
Dear snoopy: I did not take anything that norman said as an attack on myself. I am afraid that i could not live my life by such strict rules as norman, for one if i had done that when my mother was alive, i just dread to think what might have happened, and secondly, my mother sustained her injuries because of people following rules, this then resulted in her spending the rest of her life being bedridden, so please do not tell me what rules are for, i know what they are for and i said so, but sometimes rules need to be broken. I have seen in hospitals staff who say they are only following rules when they make patients wait for something, tea break or such things, well before you have your tea dont forget that 85year old who is dehydrated and suffering malnutrition, thats your job, then go and have your break, forget the rules if it puts life in danger.

With regards to the standard of care I have to agree with Tony.

The care industry only pay peanuts and it seems the only thing they look for when taking on staff is a willingness to take the job on---not the aplicant's suitability to do the job.

From nurses through care workers in residential homes to community carers, in most cases "care" should be removed from the job description.
Most of the caring ones have left the job because of the standard of care they were expected to give because of cutbacks and staff shortages--so we are left with mostly the ones who couldn't care less.
My dog gets better care at the vets than my wife did in hospital--and it's a big dog-but the vet and his nurse don't think twice about lifting her - because they care!!!
Cheers Ken
We debate thing's on this site.
People give advice on this site we don't all have to agree with the advice given we can all have our say it don't mean we are wrong or they are right.
We can just read it and sometimes keep our thoughts to our self's we don't have to keep trying to prove our point there's no need for that.
If you feel you should help the person your are caring for like picking them up it's your choice no body Else's it may be wrong but that's the way some people may see it.
It don't make it wrong if that's what's you want to do.
If my wife needed help at any time any where I would give it whether right or wrong.
But let's not fall out over what other people think.
It's there right as much as our right to do and say as we please.
I was asked by a student who is on placement with us, and who also attended the conference mentione above, whether I would employ the care workers who cared for my wife during her illness, if I had had direct funding facilities available.
I thought for a while, for about fifty care workers passed through her care plan over the time she was ill. And they came from three different caring agencies. All allocated to us by Social Services.
One outfit could not do the work because she needed two carers to handle her safely, how they will cope with the latest regulations I don't know. Presumably they will go out of business or change their business plan to fit in with the rules.
I replied that I would have to get much more information before I accepted direct funding, especially regarding insurance and regulations.
Maryann has indicated that her insurance company will not cover the whole range of her caring duties. These sort of problems need to be addressed before Direct Funding and individual budgets are rolled out across the whole spectrum of carers.
Further I said that I would only employ less than six of them. Some were just unsuited to the job, and my wife did not like them. Most of them were willing but poorly trained, and some of them thought they knew it all and made life unpleasant for everyone.
I have indicated that, on occasion I broke the rules and used the hoist on my own. On one occasion when my wife fell out of bed at two am, I heard her cry for help over the baby intercom I had purchased a few weeks before. But for that, as I am partly deaf, she may have laid there until I came down to her room at six am. The paid carers would not use that hoist because it was a hand crank model, and they insisted on a motorised version. If I had not had it I would have had to take Charles's advice and call the ambulance for assistance.
I have military connections as stated above, I served as a regular in the RAF before being discharged owing to my damaged hearing. My wife served as a Petty Officer in the Royal Naval Reserve, when my youngest son was a sea cadet. Both of them received fire fighting training at Portsmouth, and my son still serves in the Company Fire Brigade at Heysham Nuclear Power Station, where he is an engineer. In addition a cousin is a firefighter as was his father before him.
Yes sometimes rules have to be broken, but whoever breakes the rules may be called to account to justify why they acted as they did.
best wishes norman gardner