Helping for the homeless.

[jenny lucas]

"As I said before, no one has the right to sit in judgement. "

But sitting in judgement is what govenments HAVE to do! They have to make decisions about what to do about 'problems' (whatever those are in a society) and what money to spend on solving them.

The government is the 'proxy' of the 'will of the people' (in elected countries)(OK, not an ideal proxy, but there you go!) (only direct voting on every law by every citizen would be a 'true' democracy I guess!) and so yes, 'we the people' DO....and indeed MUST .... 'sit in judgement'.

In the end it boils down to the very tricky question of 'how much should the state spend on those who do not have sufficient money of their own to pay for themselves'? And that, of course, is the question at the heart of political and economic philosophy.

In your case, what would you have liked to have been available to you/ What would actually hve helped you that the state could have provided?

[jenny lucas]

Chris - does the UK have an obligation to provide housing for EU nationals who arrive her homeless (ie, without the means to buy a property or pay commercial rents)?

(Was this particular person working and earning)(as homeless and unemployment do not always go together!)

[jenny lucas]

Colin - I agee that every case of homelessness is 'individiaul'...as in, how that person came to be homeless. There will, however, be a variety of reasons, some of which are similar to each other (eg, teenagers fleeing an abusive home, losing a job that paid the rent, being evicted for, say, drug addiction, whatever, a divorce requiring one party to leave the premises and with insiffuciant income to rent).

Homeless is usually a 'symptom' of a worse underlying problem???

[Chris From The Gulag]

Under EU Law ... yes ... just as several hundred Brits currently considered " Homeless " in Spain are on the
radar of the Spannish local authorities.

( My sister and her Spanish neighbours occasionly provide supplies to five of them ... local tent village. )

Having said that ... Lincolnshire ... seasonal , agricultural workers ... yep . they are are here to work ... some
have been for years ... when the work dries up , go home again ?

Some have ... some now over 'ere in Worksop competing for whatever zero hour contracts are on offer ... others have
prepared to " Sit out " the present situation in the hope that the British weather does not repeat itself again this year.

I keep abrest of this situation through my immediate neighbours ... one has cousins over the border in Lincolnshire ...
they have been over 'ere before he arrived three years ago.

Difficult ... and there is no " One size fits all " answer ... for those over 'ere ... or for ours over there ?

[jenny lucas]

My thoughts are with those seasonal , agricultural , workers over the border in Lincolnshire.

Nothing but bad news ... and a real human crisis brewing ... lack of work , even the zero hour contract variety / inadequate " Housing " ... partly converted farm buildings / travel ( Many 10 - 20 miles from a sizeable town ... is really is grim !

**

Do they not have a choice of whether to stay in the UK and put up with those conditions, or go elseqhere in the EU and find more congenial work (or even go back to Poland).

it is the willingness of low paid non-UK workers to put up with 'slave labour' conditions that ensures those appalling conditions remain.

'Fee movement of labout' has been capitalism's best friend....and the Left in this country are too idiotic to see that (ie, they just think 'oh, poor foreigners!'....NOT 'hmm, excessive labour availability drives down wages'.....)

The Uk is regressing to the Victorian days when factory owners shipping in the starving Irish as blacklegs to break strikes....

[jenny lucas]

"Under EU Law ... yes "

Yet one more reason to be a Brexiteer.....so we don't have to house anyone who isn't a British citizen. We can't even house the British, let alone anyone else.

Idiotic.

[jenny lucas]

"when the work dries up , go home again ?"

Er, yes.

[Chris From The Gulag]

Lincolnshire ?

A real minefield ... mainly East European with the added spice of Ukranians / Russians / Belarusians mixed in ...
legal and illegals ... Boston ... a town that displays the mix almost perfectly.

My earlier post amplifies the current situation.

Throw in the traditional gangmaster element , coupled with the question of " Real " pay and " Seasonal housing "
... no wonder we have the smouldering caudron over there.

A couple of generations ago , and as previously posted , crop picking in Kent ... the annual family holiday for many
poorer families in London ... now , a whole new ball game.

Take away those jobs NOW considered to be beneath the dignity of your average Joe / Josephine Public and this
is the result.

[Chris From The Gulag]

Mmmm ... select a time and date ... blow a very loud whistle and ... like a game of musical chairs ,
all those not working return to their village / town / city / country of origin ?

( One of my Polish neighbours who I help with his UC nightmare has a cousin down in Mansfield ... he is
working , and supporting is non working , disabled wife ... does she go or stay ? )

Has it's merits ... bring everyone home , return those to their own manors ... trouble is , even with
a gain on " Outs " as opposed to " Ins " , the social problems we all NOW have will still take a couple of
generations to solve.

Even then , what solutions would fix them ... apart from raisng taxes that will provide the monies
... and an even money bet that said monies WILL ease the problem ?

As posted elsewhere ... social care ... shortages of any number in excess of 100,000 within 5 years
... an unemployed Brit facing a choice ... either accept being a paid care worker or lose yer dole
money ... sure to make good carers for our carees ?????

A couple of recent postings make note of the caree being unhappy with non native care workers.
Perhaps they would prefer a Brit ... press ganged into " Caring " ... or no dole money ?

Almost an argument straight out of West Wing ... or the present one facing the USA.

Trade more with these countries to help boost properity or ... built a rather large wall ?

[jenny lucas]

"the social problems we all NOW have will still take a couple of
generations to solve."

I wouldn't disagree with you about British citizens....but non-Brits CAN 'go home' (all ofthem, as in, inclluding disabled wives)....

The bottom line is that we are only 'our brother's keepers' if we are stuck with EU rules on 'free movement' (especially of 'non-labour'!)

Like it or not, we do have to accept that 'foreigners' will choose the UK not just for the opportunity to be employed as slave labour, but to access what benefits etc are available here. Why would they not, if that is what they can do? It is the 'rational behaviour' of economic advantage.

The whole issue of 'brother's keeper' is a global one. Do I, or you, have an obligation to reduce our living standards (eg, live on a subsistence diet, with no heating, etc etc etc) and give our money to what, in my childhood, was always referred to as ;the starving in India' etc etc etc.

What DO we 'owe' other human beings, and at what cost to ourselves?

Putting that the other way round, to what extent are WE 'expropriators' (who will, come the Revolutoin, be ourselves expropriated)

(My own personal political position is that, by and large, I DO have 'some' 'duty of care' to the 'misfortunate' - not defining rightg now who actually is 'misfortunate'! - and I believe a rough 'Christian' edict is a 'tithe'...ie, that each of us should give 10% of our income for 'the unforunate') (ie, this is the percentage of 'donation' that we should give, whether as tax, charity, other means, from which WE OURSELVES will never benefit) (ie, it excludes any part of taxation from which I derive any benefit at all, whether that is living in a safe (ie, 'policed') country, driving on 'free' roads, having 'free' NHS healthcare, free schooling etc etc).

10% may not be enough, however, to sufficiently remedy the 'misfortune' of the misfortunates, in the world, wherever they are.

The whole tithing business, however, assumes that 'my' income is NOT derived from 'expropriation' in the first place - which is not at all certain in this global, post-industrial economy!!!!!! (and it certainly is a given that NATURE for one, IS being grossly 'expropriated', eg, every time I eat factory-farmed meat, or use something that has involved a tree being logged in the Amazon, or of course that is heating the atmosphere and poisoning the earth, etc etc etc)