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A Tax rose is but a rose by any other name - Page 2 - Carers UK Forum

A Tax rose is but a rose by any other name

Socialise and chat about other areas of your life
687 posts
David c

The Alsports thingy is due to my crap spelling.

I've decided to copy & paste my Reply to Tory friend, suitably redacted. It too contains ANOTHER spelling disaster, similar to the Allsports one, as follows:

Hi X

Bloody hell, what a can of worms your tax credit bet has unopened. Top ups to wages, in one form/name or another goes back much, much further than I originally thought... to late Tudor times!
I quote from the government’s parliament website (link below):

“Those able to work, but whose wages were too low to support their families, received 'relief in aid of wages' in the form of money, food and clothes…….There was also evidence that poor law payments were being used by employers to 'top up' wages.”

So much for Gordon Brown being responsible for tax credits; Lizzy1st got there over 400 years earlier. I’ve no idea why they’re called tax credits, as you don’t have to be paying tax in order to qualify in many instances; just like in Tudor, Georgian and Edwardian times.

But I digress; fast-forward to the 1800’s. Some bloke called Spedelham (or something) introduced some other form of wage top up. It wasn’t a great success, a bit like my spelling of his name. When I googled him, google came up with “Your search - Spedelham wage reform 19th Century - did not match any documents.”
My atrocious spelling defeated the might of google…. Dyslexia rules k.o!
So let’s stuff Spedelham (or whatever he’s called) and fast-forward to 1910.

In 1910 Lloyd George’s nick-named ‘The Peoples Budget’ came into effect. It introduced a Child Tax Allowance of £10 pa for every legitimate child in a family. However, you had to earn over £160 pa (£14,590 in today’s wages) but less than £500 pa (£45,590 in today’s wages) in order to qualify.
I even managed to track down the original act (link below.) Read pages 53/54, sections 65 – 68.

However, the average wage was just under £100, or £9,117 nowadays (far less if you happened to be a female chain link worker in the Midlands; they ended up with 11 shillings/ 55p per week or £28.60p per year assuming they worked 52 weeks of the year, AFTER a massive strike in 1910 which more than doubled their wages from 5 shillings/25p per week.)

Therefore, given that the bulk of the population earned wages too low to pay tax in order to get a CTA, this part of the ‘peoples budget’ was criticised from the off as a middle-class subsidy. But such dissenters were castigated as socialists/feminists and anti-eugenicists.

Regardless, after 2 world wars, and a rather massive depression in the 30’s, people wanted a universal system which would include the low paid (do they ever leave us; not according to Jesus.)

Fast-forward 35 years to 1945: The Beverage report. The Family Allowance Act was passed. This gave money to mothers, rather than fathers. It also did NOT pay for the first child, only subsequent ones. The thinking behind this was to encourage women to have more than one child to make up for the population wiped out by two world wars, etc, etc.
Just think a woman having 10 or more kids in 1955 would be considered a heroine back then. My how times change!
Now they have entire 1 hour programs devoted to castigating them despite, according to the ONS, that just under 100 families rely on benefits who have 10 children or more. Out of that 100, only ten have 13 children or more.
Now that might be 100/10 more than you think there should be, but it’s hardly the hordes of Mog & Magog we are presented with that will collapse Western Civilisation… is it?

But I STILL digress…

You know what? I think I’ve proved my point. Ted heath in 1970 introduced Family Income Supplement for those on low wages. Barbara Castle changed the name and introduced Child Benefit later in the 70’s. She paid for this by reducing the Child Tax Allowance, so middle-class tax payers wouldn’t gain twice. Thatcher ended CTA in 1979.

Conclusion: All governments, since Tudor times, have been dicking around with wages and top-ups, not just Gordon Brown. All they ever did was change it’s name…. same difference. A top up is still a top up by any other name, STILL subsidising low wages regardless of whether it comes from councils or government (government pays 80% of council expenditure; now that is, not sure about that in Tudor times.)

Let me know the name of the Food Bank you’ll be working in for a month (4 days.) I just might join you, if I can get the time off. Enjoy!!!!

Citations (I take it you meant references?) as follows, in no particular order.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/191 ... 008_en.pdf
1910 original finance act (nick-named the peoples budget)

http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogs ... 01913.html
Average wages up to 1913
peoples budget 2010 Wikipedia with figures equivalent to today.
http://www.bclm.co.uk/media/learning/li ... ng1910.pdf
lady chain makers, cost of living 1910-2005… my fave site; I found this fascinating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_ben ... ed_Kingdom
History of child allowances in uk

Website used for relative values, tried several, all varied, this one came out at the average.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-h ... w/poverty/

Stuff about Tudors and poor law top up wages until 1834… then the dreaded workhouses. Last one closed in 1948 (in Kent) but they'll be opening up again soon. Don't believe me? Howsabout another bet?
Well done, very interesting stuff BUT what I want to know is whether or not you went out for a meal?!
Yes, come on Sajehar, don't keep us in suspense!

Bowlingbun & Melly 1

I’m going out for the ‘tax credit bet’ meal next Wednesday (25th Nov.) It’s closed Mon & Tues, too busy on Fri & Sat apparently, and he visits his parents in North Wales on Sunday. So it was my choice of Weds or Thurs. I chose Weds as I want to get my grubby mitts on that lobster and steak (fillet, medium rare – YUM – as soon as poss.)

David C….ARGHHH!

My apologies for confusing you. I didn’t mean Alsports, I meant ‘Allport’s Ladder of prejudice.’
To confuse matters even more, I mixed up Allport’s Ladder thingy (to do with ever increasing prejudice) with Overton’s Window (to do with right wing/left wing stuff)… ARGHHH again!

To make matters worse (for me) it was my Steak Mate who pointed out my mixed-up mistakes. To rub salt in the wound, he pointed out that Spedleham was actually Speenhamland, and that Speedhamland was a place that magistrates met at, and wasn’t a person.

However, I don’t think he read his own citation/reference as I got the last word in on our email spat over tax credits going back for donkey’s years, by quoting from his email citation/reference, as follows:

“The authorities at Speenhamland approved a means-tested sliding-scale of wage supplements in order to mitigate the worst effects of rural poverty. Families were paid extra to top up wages to a set level according to a table. This level varied according to the number of children and the price of bread. For example, if bread was 1s 2d a loaf, the wages of a family with two children were topped up to 8s 6d. If bread rose to 1s 8d the wages were topped up to 11s 0d….
The Poor Law Commissioners' Report of 1834 called the Speenhamland System a "universal system of pauperism". The system allowed employers, including farmers and the nascent industrialists of the town, to pay below subsistence wages, because the parish would make up the difference and keep their workers alive. So the workers' low income was unchanged and the poor rate contributors subsidised the farmers.”

So what did they introduce instead? The workhouse. My mother is 85, and still has a dread fear of the ‘relief’ who will take away her families tables and chairs, and put them in the poor house (my mum always calls what I think should be the workhouse as a poor house.)
I’m still trying to get to the bottom of this fear. Did she actually witness this personally, or did she just witness this with other families on her estate?
I’m none the wiser, despite all my questioning. But she’s so damn cagey about it that I suspect the former.

Regardless, I’ve only recently realised that George Osbourne is giving his Autumn Statement on Weds. That should lead to an interesting Meal!
But I’ve promised my steak mate not to throw my lobster at him Until I’ve eaten it and only the shell remains, and then only after I’ve eaten the steak too.
His reply was that a lady would never do that; she’d chuck a glass of wine over him instead.

My reply: That can be arranged! Now, about that food bank….
I am really really impressed by your research and the chatty way you deliver the blows to Toryboy stage by stage! Despite being a Tory I guess he must be a reasonably pleasant person or you would not be considering the meal. Hope he does his 4 days and meets enough 'clients' to realise that ordinary people are those suffering from this government and the broadest shoulders are not taking the largest burdens.
Hi Sagehar ,managed to find it on wikipedia ,doesn't take long to get from step 1 to step 5 .
Enjoy your steak and lobster .
Oh dear… I think my prank on Mr Steak mate may have backfired.

I had no idea he had decided to get his part of the bet out of the way so soon. He rang me last night all agog and excited.
At first his day started off slow, and he was ‘out of it’ and a ‘bit resentful.’ Then it got fast and furious, and he loved it!!!

He loved the camaraderie, and actually thanked me for sending him to a food bank.

Confession time 1: I only demanded it because I thought it would annoy him!

Confession time 2: I’ve never actually been near a food bank, either as a recipient, or a volunteer worker.

He was excited by what he was doing, running around like a blue arsed fly (his expression not mine) but he was also shocked.
He was shocked when people asked him for, ‘cold food.’ He didn’t know what this meant, and had to ask the person he was ‘shadowing’.

It was explained to him that some people had no means to pay for electricity/gas in order to cook food, so needed food parcels that needed no cooking.

“Yeh, that’s what happens when you’re on pre-payment meters. Been there, bought the T shirt, and it doesn’t keep you warm in winter.”

What I found a wee bit weird was he then went on about how we first met.

Apparently, I attacked him, and he couldn’t work out why.

After nearly 40 odd yrs I told him.

“you asked me out, what the hell did you expect?”

In his language, asking someone out was for a date.

In mine, from the playgrounds of the Dingle Liverpool, asking some out was for a fight, preferably on wasteland away from the prying eyes of adults.

So when his sister told me her older bro wanted to ask me out, I automatically assumed he wanted to duff me up for some reason.
I couldn’t for the life of me work out why. I’d never insulted him or anything, and anyway, only girls fought girls, and boys fought boys. Not out of any chivalry, but because it was beneath boys to fight girls.

I was truly terrified, he was a good foot taller than me, and played rugby. I decided to go in there kicking and screaming; I head butted him in the stomach, kicked his shins and laid him out flat by kicking his knackered shins out from under him.

“Do you surrender” I demanded. He did, but only because he was in so much shock, apparently. And so was his sister.

He still remembers this to this day; I’d forgotten all about it.

“You were such a little monster, but by god, WHAT a little monster you were.”

“maybe I don’t want to be a little monster, maybe I want to be no monster at all?

“so will you go out for a meal with me?”

“Only if you stop being a monster.”

“it’s taken so many years”

“Stuff that. It’s taken over 40 years, but if you want to pay for a seriously delicious meal, then it’s your money not mine I’m up for it, are you?”

“Well I am. Are you?”

I think this guy is a wimp, but a bit of me likes him?

I said yes!!!!

Should be interesting.
We eagerly await the next instalment!

Wow ,Sajehar ,Artist ,righter of wrongs ,now a street fighter :D
Stuff being a street fighter; I'm now fighting my own father.

To say my father and me had a ‘light bulb’ moment is putting it mildly. We literally had a light bulb moment, and I totally kicked off at him…. No regrets!

Mum, as usual, asked me to turn off dads ancient angle poise light that he ALWAYS leaves on, as the light gets in her eyes, and to draw the curtains as it was getting dark.

About a year ago, I changed the bulb from a 100watt one to an 11watt (equivalent to 100 watt) energy saving one, because the metal dome was burning hot when my fingers brushed it, and that this was dangerous.

Tonight, when drawing the velvet curtains on his window sill, I noticed a bloody big black scorch mark, that levelled up with where the lamp would be. That scorch mark wasn’t there two days ago.
As soon as I noticed it, I unplugged this ancient, metal angle poise from the mains, and took out the light bulb. It was a 100 watt bulb; at some point he must have replaced it.

When he got home, I confronted him with the light bulb and scorch mark on the curtains. He admitted he’d changed the light bulb.

I was incandescent (excuse pun) with fury.

“A scorch mark is this far away from fire, you IDIOT!”

He tried to excuse his behaviour by saying if he hadn’t of pointed the lamp at the curtains the scorching would never have happened.

“Oh, well that’s alright then. Your bedroom is next to the living room. Despite your bodies being found as burnt, shrivelled wrecks Guess WHAT! Smoke inhalation will get to you first. Does that make a fire alright?”

He had the grace to look shamefaced (as he damn well should), and to make sure he NEVER used that lamp again, I broke it.

“I’m off for a meal now…. Try not to burn the house down whilst I’m out!”

I am so furious with my father. I’m supposed to be going out for a meal in about 40 minutes.

You know what, let him burn the bloody house down! I’m going out for my meal (but only after I broke that blasted angle poise lamp over my knee.) :dry:
687 posts