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21 HOUR RULE ? CA : Eligibility / Studying / Developments : The Sole Thread ANYWHERE Dealing With This Abomination ! - Page 4 - Carers UK Forum

21 HOUR RULE ? CA : Eligibility / Studying / Developments : The Sole Thread ANYWHERE Dealing With This Abomination !

Share your petitions or campaigns here.
76 posts
I'm a glutton for punishment .... House of Lords ?

Homework for today ... list of Members allied with specialist areas.

Quite a few ... and exactly what " Area " would this Issue ( Plus a Lord Kitch poster ? ) fall ?

Well , I can only be banished once ?

Seems to be a shortcut through Hansard reports.

I explore further to narrow the list of likely players to be contacted.

Hansards ?

Similiar to studying the runners and riders in the Sporting Life !

Everything one needs to know before placing one's bet on a losing horse !

Good in soft conditions over 6 ... this one's on firm over 7 ?

Me judgement ... or a pin ?

Progress ... or another brick wall ?

Any stable lads / lassess out there with a tip ?
In limbo whilst I deliberate as to correct way forward.

Almost like being in a room , without a door , wondering which of the four walls is easiest to knock down.

An old article from the Guardian , 30 June 2015 , which touches apon this Issue :

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ung-carers

Campaigners say changes could make it possible for young people with caring responsibilities to continue their studies or train for a job

The organisation wants carers to be made exempt from the so-called 21-hour rule, which means that if they’re learning for longer than that a week – a requirement of most further education courses – they lose their £62.10 a week carer’s allowance. “Many of these families are living in or on the edge of poverty,” Aylward says. “That £60 can be the factor that pushes them away from learning.”

Another one , this time from TES ( Education ) site , 23 March 2016 :

https://www.tes.com/news/further-educat ... d-hopeless

'We need to stop young adult carers feeling trapped and hopeless'

Secondly, we want the Department for Work and Pensions to make young adult carers exempt from the 21-hour rule in the benefit system. Currently, they lose Carer's Allowance of £62.10 per week if they participate in learning for longer than this each week. Most further education courses require longer participation, leaving young adult carers in a catch-22 situation. Given that many young adult carers have already lost out on several years of education as a result of their caring responsibilities, and that they and their families typically live in or on the edges of poverty, they deserve greater flexibility to gain the skills they need for successful careers.

Why do I keep recalling a thread on the now consigned to history forum ... Umbrella Organisations ?

I wonder just what the purpose of that would have been ?????

The word ... Coordination ... perhaps ???

Minimise duplication , maximise limited resources ?

One question ... Why ? ... and look at the result ?

Perhaps a carer should not ask that question ?
As far as any contact with mps and / or the All Party Carers Group in the House , a whole new ball game over the Genral Election period , and fallout following the result.

It appears that virtually everything will be in limbo until such time as the new runners and riders are announced :
25 April 2017
Dear Chair & Registered Contact

All Party Parliamentary Group on xxx

This email contains important information about the rules for APPGs, and advice on good practice
over the period of the 2017 General Election. I use the word “must” when stating a rule.

During the Dissolution period

From 3 May 2017 to 8 June 2017, All Party Parliamentary Groups must not be active.

Parliamentary rules prohibit groups from making public comment, holding events, under
taking research or issuing communications, or allowing others to do so in their name.

In any event groups must not engage in any sort of campaigning and they must observe the rules on non party campaigning, available on the webpage for All Party Parliamentary Groups (see link below).

It is recommended that a group which has a website, webpages or social media account should
explain there that while the House is dissolved, there are no Members of Parliament and it has no
status as an All Party Parliamentary Group.

It should not otherwise update its webpages or social media account until after the Election on 8 June.

It is recommended that groups which need officers’ authorisation to pay invoices etc should obtain this before the House dissolves if at all possible.

Registering in the new Parliament

Groups will keep their registered status, and may function as normal between the date of the
election and 15 September 2017.

They may use the portcullis emblem and call themselves All Party Parliamentary Groups.

But in order to retain their status after 15 September and to appear in the first Register of the new Parliament, they must hold an inaugural meeting and must submit a registration form by 15 September 2017.

The Register will be published shortly afterwards.

Typical ... just when a little momentum was building up.

News as and when will continue to be reported under this Thread.
Interesting to record that in the Carers UK manifesto , in advance of the general election , is , amongst other bullet points :

Ensure carers are able to juggle work and care, returning to work if they wish

Would not the abolition of the 21 Hour Rule also assist carers to return to the workplace with upto date qualifications needed by virtually any employer ?

No mention of that.

Carers Trust campaign ?

" Going Higher " .... aimed at young carers going onto university.

21 Hour Rule ?

No mention.

At least they are consistent with one another .... ?

Why no mention ?

That's for you to interpret .... it's not visible , and I can't finding it hiding anywhere.

Lord Kitch ? Well , that's our one ... what needs to be done ... in plain English.

Be also interesting to see just how much impact our supporting organisations have in direct comparison with the now one supporting organisation in Ireland :

http://www.carersuk.org/forum/news-camp ... nd#p354240

The Irish have set the benchmark ... how will our two compare ?

What is rather strange is that Irish carers have an even more stringent rule on studying ... 15 Hour Rule :
Not be engaged in employment, self-employment, training or education courses outside the home for more than 15 hours a week. During your absence, adequate care for the person requiring full-time care and attention must be arranged.

Internet based studying , say 30 hours a week ?

Compuer housed in a garage not attched to a house ... say 15 feet away ?

Taking one's caree with them to an Internet cafe to study ?

I'll leave that one well alone .... !

On second thoughts ... 10 Euros an hour ? ,,,, 9 ? ... 8 ? ... on me sheleighly ?

Purely for the record.
Question for any reader :

Assume a carer and a caree ... say both 35 , brother / sister ... brother full time carer , sister wheelchair bound.

Only income is a standard range of benefits , no assets.

Both sign up for the same course. Brother pushes sister in her wheelchair to attend.... no student related grants.

Would the sister lose any of her standard benefits by studying ?

The brother would lose Carers Allowance if attending / studying for 21 hours or more.

Would either / or both the Equalities Act or discrimination by association kick in ?

Same question left on the Scope " Ask a Benefit Advisor " forum.

All touches apon an old argument of mine , now more than a decade old ... without a caree , there is no need for a carer ... caree / carer ... a partnership ?

I've always wanted to know what the legal fraternity thought of that in relation to exisiting law.

PROTOCOOPERATION ... lovely sounding word ... from the world of nature ... in many cases , a caree needs a carer to survive ... ever been muted before .... ponder on that for a while ...

Worth a few points in scrabble ... even without the bonus squares ?

An association of mutual benefit to two or more species but without the cooperation being obligatory for their existence or the performance of some function.

In sociological terms , are not carers and carees different " Species " ?

Our supporting organisations agree .... always recommend assessments for a carer independently of the caree ... and yet , back to a carer / caree being a partnership ... see a contradiction coming on ... a clash of individual versus partnership needs ?

Yes , all carers have free will ... but subversive to their caree's needs ?

Someone earning a lot more than me needs to give that one some thought ?

Quite often over the years , the potential solution to one problem may be found in a totally different area ... the inherent problems of specialisation and the wearing of blinkers ... not good aids when considering the whole picture ?

Any biologists out there see the possible connection when applied to human beings ?

Why are engineers , mathematicians and physicists studying snowflakes ? It's not that they want to make the perfect snowball ... !

How many threads interlock ... the bane of CarerLand ... ???

The more one looks , the more considerations are found.

Feel free to jump in at anytime ... my neck's always above the parapet ...
All goes back to the same problem. No one really understands carers or caring. They don't want to either.
The bottom line .... pure and simple !

Carers care but , who cares / looks after / deals with the problems of the carer ???

Some out there purport to do that ... at a price.

How many £ millions are paid out to suits who have no idea of the real needs of carers simply because , to really understand what is needed , being a carer is the only way to do so.

Textbooks are of no use in CarerLand , the means to survive in the form of adequate income and affordable support services are the ONLY commodities needed ... living comes later.

CarerLand is a lonely place ... carers together with our carees ... and little else.
Interesting to record Carers UK submission to the White Paper on Universal Credit , December 2010 and , in particular , the 21 Hour Rule :

8.10 The 21 hour study rule: the existing rules for Carer’s Allowance mean that carers are also unable to combine studying for 21 hours a week or more with claiming Carer’s Allowance.

8.11 DWP guidance indicates that the definition of 21 hours is flexible, can extend far beyond ‘contact time’ of lectures and seminars to ‘any involvement in …. [an] exercise, experiment of project’ and is broadly applied to any course that is termed ‘full-time’ by an educational institution [12] . Carers UK’s Adviceline has heard from a carers whose Carer’s Allowance has been removed on the basis of studying a course termed ‘full-time’ by a college, but which amounts to only 14 hours of study a week. This acts to exclude carers from a wide variety of courses which could fit alongside caring responsibilities.

8.12 In addition to preventing carers from maintaining or developing skills, this rule also acts as a particular bar to:

· disabled carers participating fully in public life

· carers from BAME communities who are both more likely to have caring responsibilities and less likely to have access to full-time education

· women, by reducing the capacity of those who have been away from the labour market for long periods (such as mothers of disabled children) to gain skills for work, retrain or prepare for life after caring.

8.13 The White Paper states that the current benefits system can ultimately trap carers on benefits. This rule actively prevents carers who would be able to juggle caring for 35 hours a week or more with studying, from engaging in education because they are unable to do so without the loss of their income.

Fine , 6 years 4 months ago , and probably the position for a good few years earlier.

Any follow up ?

Or , was that just for the record ?

Concerns noted ... end of ... until carers themselves decide to take that challenge on ?

Why should carers challenge anything affecting our survival / lives as carers ????

Don't we have that Right to do so ?

Do we need to send an sos almost every time and hope someone , somewhere is listening ?

This time we have natural allies , student who are also carers.

The Right to better ourselves through education without being penalised for it !

Another one to chalk up in the " Yes , but requires legal action first " column for Carers Rights Day ... alongside the Care Act.

Without that column , the " Yes " side who look pretty thin.

Purely rhetorical.
A very interesting development , me thinks :

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-welfare
New National Union of Students leader is determined to make equality her cause

Shakira Martin, only the second NUS leader not to have gone to university, wants to use her working-class background to shape union policy


She credits her own further education college with having enabled her to put food in front of her daughters and get into work. And she intends to draw heavily on her working-class background when it comes to leading and shaping the priorities of the NUS.

“I definitely think we have not recognised the class barriers that prevent loads of students getting involved in their unions and accessing education,” she said in her first major interview since her election.

“My experience in the movement has been that I have related to so many different people. I’m not going to lie, and some people may not like me for saying this, but I have often been able to relate to a white, non-disabled, straight man because we have come from a working-class background. That resonates a lot with my experience.”

She intends to launch a poverty commission to look into the often hand-to-mouth existence of austerity Britain’s students, foster greater collaboration with trade unions to win rights in the so-called gig economy and lobby for the creation of a hardship fund to assist students who are parents or carers.

A very powerful ally in the making ???

Lewisham ... Sarf London lass ... bandit country ... understands London English ... local team , Millwall ... working class ... naturally relate to carers , especially those at the bottom end ... aware of food banks ... no airs and graces ... judging by the article , speaks from the same perspective as me ... promising ?

Copy of my email :

Congratulations on behalf of 6 million+ family carers , many current and former students amongst our ranks.

When you're settled in and seen the mountain of priorites awaiting you , just one for our mutual interest maybe near to the top of the pile ... the 21 Hour Rule eligibility for Carers Allowance.

No just yet but ... when you are ready , feel free to contact me.

One can hope ... dangerous in CarerLand , almost forbidden ?

Others tend to agree .... now 25-1 from 33-1 ... !

I'm sniggering .... I got 40-1 when I started this thread !
Reply from SCOPE on the following question :
Assume a carer and a caree ... say both 35 , brother / sister ... brother , full time time carer , sister wheelchair bound.

Only income is a standard range of benefits , no assets.

Both sign up for the same course. Brother pushes sister in her wheelchair to attend.... no student related grants.

Would the sister lose any of her standard benefits by studying ?

The brother would lose Carers Allowance if attending / studying for 21 hours or more.

Would either / or both the Equalities Act or discrimination by association kick in ?

PIP/DLA are not affected by studying. If the sister is on income-related ESA and gets PIP or DLA then she can continue getting ESA whilst studying. Contributory ESA is not affected by studying. Having said this, she will need to tell the DWP, because what may be called into question is her limited capability for work, and/or her limited capability for work-related activity if she is in the support group for ESA (the group which doesn't have to do work-related activity).

Having said that lots of disabled people do study full-time and are able to demonstrate that this doesn't mean their limited capability for work is affected.

You are right of course about the 21 hour rule in CA. If the brother is also claiming Income Support then he would not be able to get it in full-time education (defined for this benefit, in England and Wales, as more than 16 hours of 'guided learning' a week).

In addition student income would fall to be taken into account, if available to them, and these would reduce their income-related benefits (apart from specific grants for disabled students which are disregarded).

As for the Equality Act, well that might kick in if the educational institution didn't make the course fully accessible for example. Discrimination by association would apply only if some sort of direct or indirect discrimination was caused to the carer because of his association with the disabled person. I think however you are probably talking about whether the benefit rules might breach discrimination law (both against the disabled person, and by association against the carer).

First of all you would have to identify the detriment. If the detriment is loss of benefit then the government might be likely to say you can get student income instead. But of course with loans these have to be paid back. For someone who is disabled, and someone likely to be a long-term carer, it may be that they will never be in a position to repay those - or that it is less likely, or at the very least by the time they are earning 'enough' to start repaying they will have had many years of low income behind them. I have had experience of disabled people deciding not to study because they simply do not want to have a loan hanging over them. So there may be arguments in there, but you would definitely need a lawyer to take them further.

In essence , no further forward on the legal side without seeking a fully fledged legal opinion.

Does point out the barriers without fully exploring the situation as so described.

No reference to the notion of a carer / caree partnership ... probably too new for many to explore that assumption in the legal sense ... a notion that is a decade or more old as confirmed by the CarerWatch archives.

If a partnership , that would open up a whole new area as we discovered when kicking the notion around , and applying it to everyday situations. I still remain optimistic that someone somewhere will take that a step forward ... no caree / no carer ... a partnership ?

To rely on just one opinion is wrong , one would need , say , 3 / 4 , then take a view across the spectrum. I had experience in my banking days ... 2 opinions sought costing £ low thousands ... ( Over £ 10,000 at today's values ) ... both came back , flatly contradicted each other ... the bank then sort a third.

Still , one more avenue touched apon , will assist anyone with the muscle to take this Issue further if the political route is a future brick wall.

Not bad so far .... only time and effort spent ... not a £ 0.01 in actual money.

Just shows what can be done if nothing more than supplying ammunition.
76 posts