At wits end with smelly 82 year old mum!

[bowlingbun]

Actually, to me it sounds as if you are winning, so don't despair. She was never going to give in on the first day. By being firm and consistent, you are showing that you really do mean it and you are not going to change your mind (which you need to do out of respect for your wife, and her house). It sounds as if mum is beginning to miss you, especially having turned up twice in two days at meal times. Keep going the way you are.

[Parsifal]

Elderly people are not children, bowlingbun, wherever did this disrespect for the elderly come from, the belief that they should be treated like recalcitrant children rather than trying to understand them and, heaven forbid, learn from them, little wonder that they resent it and dig their heels in. We all grow old, I only hope that we will be treated with more understanding and respect than than the current older generation.

[Tony Malpaso]

Actually, to me it sounds as if you are winning, so don't despair. She was never going to give in on the first day. By being firm and consistent, you are showing that you really do mean it and you are not going to change your mind (which you need to do out of respect for your wife, and her house). It sounds as if mum is beginning to miss you, especially having turned up twice in two days at meal times. Keep going the way you are.

I am not sure if anyone realises that she is not going to 'give in' and this is as good as it gets. All we can do is try and come to terms with the fact she is 83, set in her ways and will never change. We will not abandon her but offer support, how ever little she is willing to accept.

[bowlingbun]

It's mum's choice at the end of the day, but at least you are respecting your wife and marriage by taking a stand.

[bowlingbun]

That would be an interesting discussion topic. Not only does the UK have an ageing population, but people are living longer, which means that the age of children caring for their parents is also increasing. I'm now 60. I've cared for my son, born with SLD, for 33 years; and all four parents have had very serious health problems. Between them they had 5 children, but only my husband and I lived near enough, the others had all moved away. We have done our very best in incredibly difficult circumstances. None of my dreams, hopes, or expectations for my own old age will ever come true. My husband died suddenly from a heart attack at the age of 58. I'm now suffering from severe health problems because demands on me to care have been so great that I've never been able to look after myself properly. I had my first proper holiday in 25 years only because I'd nearly died! It's all very well parents doing exactly what they want, be it washing, refusing services, etc. etc. but where does that leave the children who are themselves of pensionable age?

[Parsifal]

It's all very well parents doing exactly what they want, be it washing, refusing services, etc. etc. but where does that leave the children who are themselves of pensionable age?

It leaves them with a choice, to care or not to care.

As far as I am concerned my parents gave me life and love, my father is dead but my mother knows that should she need care I would willingly provide it, it would be a small return for what she has given me. And I absolutely respect her determination, some might wrongly call it stubborness, to stay independent for as long as possible even if it means that she takes risks, she is an intelligent, competent woman and I have no intention of treating her like a two-year old simply because she has become increasingly disabled and frail, were she not intelligent and competent I would still respect her wishes unless they caused major health problems because caring is not about us but about the people for whom we care and giving them the maximum autonomy, choice and quality of life. If we are incapable of doing this perhaps caring is not for us and we should hand the care over to someone who recognises that becoming elderly and frail does not remove an individual's rights.

And, bowlingbun, lest you think that I do not know what I am talking about, I do, I have years of experience of caring for an older husband.

[bowlingbun]

Parsifal,
Mum now has the maximum amount of carer support available, but needs me to do the things they want, especially property and money matters. My health is poor but my conscience won't allow me to put my needs first. My son with LD lives in his own flat with carer support, but he has been financially abused. I can't turn a blind eye to this. Since my husband died suddenly, I find being the major "Thunderbird" when anything happens very difficult, especially when I am not well myself. There is a real dilemma here. At the moment it seems that I can only support my relatives by ignoring my own health needs and my own aspirations.

[Parsifal]

Bowlingbun, let me run a few facts in front of you so that you realise that you are not alone:

An Equality Impact Statement into the impact of DLA reform published yesterday states that 30% of claimants of CA are themselves disabled within the meaning of the DDA, 20% of CA claimants are themselves in receipt of DLA. Some of these disabled carers are members of this board, some of them are providing physically demanding personal care despite themselves having a physical disability, others are struggling with mental health issues whilst providing care for a family member.

Research by CUK has shown that caring has a negative impact on health and finances and you only have to read this board to see that it is not in the least unusual for carers to have to postpone or entirely give up their aspirations and plans for the future.

[bowlingbun]

Parsifal,
My postings were made in response to Audrey's comments about "dealing with growing old, our individual hopes and fears for the future; about facing the facts and implications; about the moralities as well as the practical issues".
I outlined my own moral dilemma as a contribution to the debate. I have four friends, all in their sixties, all desperately keen to ensure their parents live well and safely in their own homes but caring is an increasing strain on them.

[Parsifal]

Parsifal,
My postings were made in response to Audrey's comments about "dealing with growing old, our individual hopes and fears for the future; about facing the facts and implications; about the moralities as well as the practical issues".
I outlined my own moral dilemma as a contribution to the debate. I have four friends, all in their sixties, all desperately keen to ensure their parents live well and safely in their own homes but caring is an increasing strain on them.

You addressed your post to me and I responded to it :

Parsifal,
Mum now has the maximum amount of carer support available, but needs me to do the things they want, especially property and money matters. My health is poor but my conscience won't allow me to put my needs first. My son with LD lives in his own flat with carer support, but he has been financially abused. I can't turn a blind eye to this. Since my husband died suddenly, I find being the major "Thunderbird" when anything happens very difficult, especially when I am not well myself. There is a real dilemma here. At the moment it seems that I can only support my relatives by ignoring my own health needs and my own aspirations.

[SheWolf]

Elderly people are not children, bowlingbun, wherever did this disrespect for the elderly come from, the belief that they should be treated like recalcitrant children rather than trying to understand them and, heaven forbid, learn from them, little wonder that they resent it and dig their heels in. We all grow old, I only hope that we will be treated with more understanding and respect than than the current older generation.

Parsifal, in my opinion, respect has to be earned and should go both ways in any relationship between adults. Tony is not being disrespectful towards his mother, he is merely setting some boundaries and asking his mother to respect his wife and home, by not inflicting her body odour on them during mealtimes in their own home. That seems entirely reasonably to me.

It also seems that some elderly people do act a bit like recalcitrant children, so that will naturally change the way their adult children behave towards them. A lot of role reversal seems to happen, especially when adult children are dealing with elderly parents with severe dementia/Alzheimer's. To me it's not a question of disrespect, but more often the case it's just the way things have to be when elderly people are unable to make rational, sensible decisions about their lives.

Tony - I think you're doing really well, making a firm stand and showing your mother that she is not the only one with choices - you are able to choose when/if you let her into your home and under what conditions you will allow that to happen. You haven't abandoned her, you've just reclaimed your home and privacy back - well done. Maybe you're right and this is as good as it gets, but in time she will stop turning up at mealtimes so at least you don't have to endure unpleasant smells while eating. Have you thought of showing her this message thread? Do you think it would give her pause for thought and perhaps make her see things from another perspective?

[Tony Malpaso]

Tony - I think you're doing really well, making a firm stand and showing your mother that she is not the only one with choices - you are able to choose when/if you let her into your home and under what conditions you will allow that to happen. You haven't abandoned her, you've just reclaimed your home and privacy back - well done. Maybe you're right and this is as good as it gets, but in time she will stop turning up at mealtimes so at least you don't have to endure unpleasant smells while eating. Have you thought of showing her this message thread? Do you think it would give her pause for thought and perhaps make her see things from another perspective?

I am finding taking a 'firm stand' very distressing. I had not seen her since last Sunday due to work commitments and although I had called a couple of times in the week including today she was out. I rang her at 5pm and she said she had only just got in after one of her walks and as usual, she did not want a meal but asked if she could come to my house for half an hour. There is no nice way of telling your mother that she is not welcome and I started by telling her that we loved her but because she did not take baths, she smelt and it made it very unpleasant for us. I had been talking for some time and then realised she had put the phone down. Fifteen minutes later she turned up at my house and for the first time ever, rang the door bell instead of walking straight in. She stood bent at an awkward angle looking at me trying to judge my mood. Realising I was not going to block her path, she stepped in and headed straight for the lounge sofa. I quickly indicated to my wife to move the cushions before she had chance to sit and contaminate them. She was carrying a bag containing a box of chocolates, biscuits and a crossword book intended for my wife. I keep having to reminder her that we don't eat boxes of chocolates but she brings them anyway. She only stayed a few minutes and then left saying I was being nasty to her and wanted to know why. I said she was being nasty to us by not taking a bath. She turned and marched off leaving me raked with guilt and my blood pressure problem enhanced. I'm not sure I want to take any more of this, it really gets me down, and as long as I live within walking distance, I cant see an end. I think I'm in for another difficult year.

[Parsifal]

I think that you have reached an impasse, neither of you is going to back down and to break it one of you will have to back down. You could invite her somewhere nice but not busy for her belated birthday lunch with no mention of her bathing and see what happens, if she asks if you expect her to bathe and change her clothes tell her that it would be nice but is up to her, it is her company you want and try to sound as though you mean it.

The problem with people of this age is that they may not be around for a year so I think that it is always worth trying to understand them, resolve any problems and let them know we care whilst we still can, your mother is trying to bring you peace offerings, they are not the offer you want, maybe it is your turn to try to make the peace?

[SheWolf]

Tony,

So sorry to hear you are still having all these problems with your mother. Parsifal made a good point, saying that your mother seems to be bringing you "peace offerings" of a kind. One thing that struck me is, you keep telling her that you don't eat boxes of chocolates but she keeps bringing them to you. So, that makes me wonder if she has got dementia, as she can't seem to take that simple fact on board. Maybe that also accounts for why she doesn't seem to get the message about the hygiene thing... could it be that she genuinely keeps forgetting all the conversations you've had about hygiene/bathing etc? If that's the case, then each time you raise the issue she may be taking offence as though hearing it all for the first time.

I'm going through similar issues with my father right now. Because of his dementia he can barely remember that 10 days ago he was in hospital with pneumonia and a urinary tract infection. He's refusing nearly all food offered to him and hardly drinking either, so I keep explaining to him why it's important for him to eat to build his strength up etc, but we are going round in circles and I'm getting nowhere. He seems to have lost the will to live now and I'm running out of ideas how to help him. I find it mentally draining, having the same conversations with him over and over again about why I'm trying to get him to eat. He feels I'm nagging him, but he has no recollection of how ill he has been.

Maybe your mother can't remember when she last had a bath, but is trying to mask her dementia, saying she's happy to be a "dirty mare" but really she's in denial about her memory problems and so can't face discussing the issue? It's all very difficult and upsetting to deal with.

I've marked the date of my mother's last shower on the calendar and when 2 weeks or more have passed I will be pressing her to take another shower, as she did agree that one shower every 2 weeks is probably about right for her. I'm sure she has the early signs of dementia, so it helps to have written evidence to show her that I'm not lying when I say she's due for a shower or to have her hair washed. Dad is too ill for me to push the hygiene issues right now as he's barely eating, so that's the least of our problems. Good luck Tony.

[Tony Malpaso]

The trouble is Parisfal, I have tried your suggestion of taking her out for meals with and without demands for her to take a bath, but it makes no difference, she does not care how bad she smells or looks. Actually, that's not entirely true, we took her and her younger sister to a National Trust house last year and she did look reasonably smart and clean, although she still stank when you got too close. At her elder sisters funeral last year, she also looked clean, but all she had done was wash her hair, overdose on deodorant and wear clean clothes, but no bath.

Shewolf, I think its fair to say she must have mild dementia, but a lot also has to do with her general attitude and bloody minded stubbornness. I am trapped in a situation of wanting to do the right thing and help her, but resined to the fact she will never change. One of my favourite films is Catch 22.