How to tell someone they're not good at something

[Lazydaisy]

I have thought long and hard about this,before coming back here.
Does the person with Downs Syndrome come to this "hobby" with a parent or sibling, or do they come alone?
How did they find out about the group?
My son has often been in situations which are beyond his comprehension,in mainly male orientated groups. Perhaps men are more tolerant of people with learning disabilities, because we have never had any problems with his attendance at mainstream activities.

[late of this parish]

Hi Lazydaisy
'A' turned up uninvited and apparently alone, though we suspect that a family member had brought him and pointed us out from a distance. Once he knew where we usually met he appeared each time, despite being gently told that we weren't a club.
It would have been easy for his family to hear about us, an overheard conversation in the cafe or any of the local shops and from snippets we've gleaned from 'A' they'd told him that all he had to do was walk up and sit with us to "join" and that because he has Downs no-one could object

Your son sounds as if he functions at a rather higher level than 'A', both in abilities and social skills and I don't think you would ever dream of trying to pull such a 'fast one' on any group of people who might be doing an activity he showed an interest in

We feel it was a 'set up' planned by his family, done out of good but deluded intentions .... if only they'd spent a fraction of their efforts in having a little chat with us first

[Lazydaisy]

I have to say that does sound a bit unfair,to the young man also, if his family have told him that nobody can object just because he has Downs.
I hope that I have not used it as a weapon,and when he wants to do activities,then all of us,family and support workers,look at the options to find the most appropriate one for him.

[dragonlady]

Several years ago when we lived in England a neighbour turned up at my door asking if I would sign a petition against the opening of a home for people with LD. I was aghast- she knew my sister with Downs lived us and this lady was generally friendly toward us. When she saw my angry face her response was : " well yours is house trained" !! Needless to say I never spoke to her again.

People with LD who have poor social skills are generally that way because of their learning disability - not because they haven't been brought up properly etc etc. There is always some judgemental, ignorant busybody, know it all who knows bettter of course. Socialising with others is an important part of learning appropriate skills and inclusion means that groups have to adapt.

People with LD do have a right of inclusion and can expect "preferential" treatment to accommodate them -all disabled people are entitled for special provision to be made for purposes of equality and inclusion. For a person with LD that means the provision of a supporter which could be either formal or informal. I think the family should have introduced themselves but I also think the "group" might have made the effort to find out more about how they can help this man. With the right support he may well overcome his difficulty with the skill in hand.

[Parsifal]

I think perhaps the most pertinent issue here is whether this is a mainstream activity in which anyone could normally participate without needing a particular skill or is it an activity which requires a particular level of skill before anyone, with or without a disability, including a LD, can participate? If it is the former the exclusion of someone with a LD could be seen as discrimatory, if it is the latter it would seem reasonable to wish to exclude any individual, disabled or otherwise, and would therefore not be discrimatory.

As far as preferential treatment is concerned, whilst I do expect reasonable steps to be taken to allow me to participate in an activity on an equal basis where my disability is the only factor preventing me from doing so, I do not expect to be treated more favourably than someone who is not disabled because I am disabled, therefore, in the type of case in question, if I do not have the required skill and have shown no aptitude I would not expect to be included simply because I have a disability. And I have to accept that there are occasions where there is no solution which will permit my inclusion even where I do have the skills because my disability creates a barrier to inclusion which is either impossible to overcome or would require an unreasonable amount of support from other members. I personally check out the suitability of an activity or venue before I make a decision about whether it is going to be feasible for me to participate and this avoids problems for everyone, including me, and I agree that the family in question could have avoided the current situation had they checked that the group was suitable in advance.

I see the issue both from a personal perspective and more widely than that of LD, I am very aware that different disabilities can attract different types of discrimination, I have myself been subjected to discrimination and I have witnessed the ignorance and prejudice shown to people with entirely different disabilities to mine and objected, but I do think that it is important that as people with disabilities or the carers of people with disabilities we do not assume that the disability is the sole factor because the reasons why we or the people for whom we care are excluded can be due to other factors. My concern in this case is the attitude to behaviour which the members of the group see as disruptive/antisocial and on which, as already stated, I share the views of those who live with family members with LD and which I agree could be seen as discriminatory but as long as it is solely a case of requiring a certain skill or level of skill to participate I do not perceive the exclusion of any member who lacks that skill as discriminatory. As in all things it is a case of finding a balance, a balance between the rights of everyone involved.

[dragonlady]

At my son's enlightened workplace prospective employees who are "no good" at the skill required are taken on. They are given a one to one supporter until they reach the required skill. They have a learning disability. People with LD are ENTITLED TO HAVE THEIR DISABILITY RECOGNISED AND CATERED FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!

They often are "no good" at the skills we pick up easily- THAT IS WHAT A LEARNING DISABILITY IS!!!!!

People with learning disabilities have the same right to inclusive support as other people with different disabilities. The man clearly has an interest for the activity and NEEDS SUPPORT to participate. The group obviously don't want to give it. I suspect there is another side to the story here.

[Parsifal]

I absolutely understand what you are saying and I have nowhere suggested that people with a LD have less right to support than people with other disabilities because this is not something which I would ever countenance let alone something which I would endorse, support should always be appropriate to the individual whatever the disability, but I still have a problem with the concept that because someone has a disability they should be treated more favourably than non disabled people whatever the facts of the case simply because they are disabled when the favourable treatment is of no benefit to them in terms of the desired but unobtainable outcome and puts unreasonable demands or has a detrimental effect on other people. And I accept that some people take longer to acquire skills than others and that what is unreasonable or detrimental can be perceived differently by different people.

But the reality is that we all have our individual talents, skills and potential as well as our individual limitations whether we are disabled or not, the first three should be nurtured but our limitations are something which we have to accept and live with, I, for example, am not thinking of joining a rock-climbing club, this would not be to my benefit and would be more than problematic for other members, but I might decide to do something which I do have the capacity or potential to do as long as any adjustments which would have to be made for me are reasonable and do not impinge on the enjoyment of other members.

And surely this is what the thread is about, recognising that some things are simply not suitable for everyone, I wonder if A did not have a disability whether we would respond in the same way, it does raise concerns about discrimination, largely because of the comments which do not relate to skills, but if it is only down to a lack of skills which cannot be accommodated by this particular group the only way to resolve it surely is to treat A in exactly the same way as any other member who also lacks the necessary skills and a group which is in a position to develop any potential whether in this or another skill would be more beneficial to A.

[Lazydaisy]

Dragonlady,thank you for expressing it so well.

[late of this parish]

This will be my last post on this subject

The activity is not mainstream, requires excellent hand/eye/ear co-ordination, fine motor skills, timing, manual dexterity, good communication and a good memory. The person in question does not have any of these and even with the support of a saint would not be able to cope.
Not everyone can do this activity LD or not. It took 10 years of constant practice to reach the skill level I have now, slower than some, faster than others and the discipline of regular daily practice to maintain that level.
There are hobbies I would be no good at and I accept that.

Views on what is socially acceptable behaviour/ good manners will vary from person to person and place to place. These days swearing in the street seems to be seen as 'normal' by some but causes offence to others.
I am considered quite odd by my younger relatives for putting fish&chips on a plate to eat with a knife and fork rather than eating with my hands from the wrappings

We were people with a shared interest, not a club providing a service. Because it is not a mainstream activity and done by relatively few people, it was pleasant to meet others (with the same interest and skill level) socially, a regular but informal arrangement that is now ended.


Thankyou Parsifal for your well put posts giving views from 'both sides of the fence'

[malc]

it's all very secretive,it's a bit like 20 questions,are you all trainee spies or something,i get that the lad with downs can't be named but surely you can say what your club is about so people can agree or disagree it's not suitable for him,all very strange if you ask me!!!!

[late of this parish]

it's all very secretive,it's a bit like 20 questions,are you all trainee spies or something,

That made me laugh so it's my 'last post +1 ...... nothing so exotic .... and it's not a club
we all played obscure and complicated old music

[malc]

just thought i'd lighten it all up,i've not got ld,but i'd expect you to tell me to leave because i'm tone death and can't play an instrument,problem solved,it would be like somebody joining the wifes az group and not have dementia,they would be out of place and not welcome,see my point,disability isn't an issue if you can't do something.

[Lazydaisy]

I thought music was for everyone. It breaks down all barriers.
I nursed stroke victims who had lost the ability to talk, but could sing, Alzheimers patients who still retained musical memory,and they were beautiful to listen to.So sad that your group did not feel that the person with Downs was capable of enjoying lovely music along with you.

[charles47]

I've deliberately avoided getting embroiled in this discussion, partly because it's the sort of subject that will bring out everyone's own prejudices.

Parents of people with Learning Disabilities - myself included - are fiercely protective of their offspring. But sometimes that can be counter-productive.

Mike enjoys music - he has a wide range of musical tastes. He loves going to concerts, loves listening to music - and thoroughly enjoys singing. To himself. Or in the shower. Which is the best place for it - his singing voice was inherited from me, and a thing of beauty it isn't. He does not play a musical instrument although he's had a few desultory goes at various percussion instruments.

He'd rather listen to good music than make bad music. He gets that from me, too. I'd hope he had the confidence to have a go at karaoke if he wanted to, but only because sober his voice is no worse than any given drunk. And certainly not because he has any additional rights over anyone else.

Ann's vague description got me thinking of campanology - remembering the combinations (as in ringing the changes), the dexterity required to ring the bells with clarity and to deaden the sound at the appropriate point, etc. No way could Mike manage that: daft to even consider allowing him to try. People would be looking for the fire engine This is not twanging a laggy band over a tissue box, folks, and can't be brought to that level no matter how you try.

Equally, if the skill level required is less specific, some give and take is appropriate. Mike takes part in art classes. He is expected to deal with the issues taught, but can choose his own subjects within that. So when a piece of work involving perspectives was demanded of the class, he had to produce one - no easy ride for Mike. And he did it. With cartoon characters, because they were part of his comfort zone. However, his perspectives were absolutely spot on, which surprised everyone except Mike.

If people like Mike are to be included in society, it will take give and take on all sides. Otherwise who's discriminating against whom?

[late of this parish]

.So sad that your group did not feel that the person with Downs was capable of enjoying lovely music along with you.

'A' was ( and is ) not capable of playing a musical instrument or even beating in time to simple tune, he was also unable to sit quietly and just listen (which would have been OK)
Charles' comment about it not being twanging laggy band over a box sums it up perfectly