How to tell someone they're not good at something

[late of this parish]

Can anyone advise how to gently but firmly let someone know that they can't do something without
i) upsetting them too much
ii) falling foul of the PC brigade

1) 'A' ( Downes syndrome, 20's physically strong, poor communication skills, stroppy when thwarted ) has been told by their family that they are the bees knees at a certain activity and encouraged by them to seek out a local group doing this activity.
'A's family have a complete blind spot as to just how bad at this skill 'A' is and react to any advice/criticism with accusations of prejudice/discrimination.

2) The group is an informal one made up of people with the same interest, a core of regular attendees and people coming when they can, and has never needed to set a 'minimum standard' of ability for anyone coming along as most people know if they can or can't do it without needing to be told. It is not a 'teaching' group, people are expected to have already mastered the skills required.
People are now avoiding attending, new people don't come back, it is no longer an enjoyable meeting and it's all down to 'A's disruptive presence. The group will have to disband (or reform in secret) if this continues.

Help please

[Parsifal]

Difficult one but I believe that people with disabilities are entitled to be treated equally, not preferentially, so I would suggest that, if the LD alone is not the issue, i.e. it is the suitability of the group and the level of skill required, and you have attempted to accommodate A, you try to deal with the problem as you would or have in the past for someone without a LD. Whether this is a case of trying to convince the other members that they need to be more accommodating or it is a case of having to explain to A's parents why the activity is unsuitable is hard to say with so without knowing the full detail. If it really is a case of asking the parents of A to withdraw him from the activity, and it appears that it is, finding and suggesting an alternative which does not require the same level of skill is probably a good idea.

[late of this parish]

Thanks for the reply

.......I believe that people with disabilities are entitled to be treated equally, not preferentially .....

We agree with that but lowering the standards of the group to accommodate 'A's lack of ability (and poor social skills) would be extremely preferential rather than equal treatment. Unfortunately 'A's parents have given 'A' a completely false sense of ability and have talked themselves and 'A' into believing that any group would welcome 'A' with open arms (without checking with the group first to find out what is acceptable )

It's going to be a difficult one to sort out. At least there's this forum, with people who know what they're talking about, to ask for advice

[Parsifal]

That is what I meant, people with disabilities have the right to be treated equally, I do not expect preferential treatment because I am disabled, in fact it would make me unequal in that I would receive better treatment than someone who is able-bodied. This, in terms of equality law, means that people with disabilities have the right to expect reasonable adjustments to be made to accommodate their disability, "reasonable" is not defined and is a bit of a grey area but common sense should prevail on the part of both parties, if attempts have been made to accommodate someone with a disability or there is no means of accommodating the disabled person's requirements the legal requirements have been met.

I think that it is a case of having reasonable and realistic expectations on the part of the disabled person or his/her carers as well as a willingness to make reasonable adjustments on the part of the provider of goods or services, for example, whilst I do expect the owner of a shop in a modern building to ensure that I can access the shop unless there is good reason not to do so, for example obstructing the pavement, I do not expect the owners of a listed building open to the public to rip out the heart of it to install a lift so that I can go upstairs.

I hope that this helps.

[late of this parish]

Thank you, it does help

Common sense is a rare and fragile flower these days

[Melly1]

finding and suggesting an alternative which does not require the same level of skill is probably a good idea

sounds like a good idea.

Let us know what happens.

Melly1

[charles47]

Overall I agree with Parsifal but a few points:

1) Be very sure that everything you've tried is written down somewhere. No records mean that it hasn't happened.

2) Be very clear about what is and is not a reasonable level of proficiency.

There was a karaoke bar that banned certain people with learning disabilities because they "hogged the mike" and "weren't good enough". Smacked of discrimination because the level of proficiency was "understood" - but not one person, even drunk and out of tune, had ever been prevented from using the microphone before.

[late of this parish]

finding and suggesting an alternative which does not require the same level of skill is probably a good idea

sounds like a good idea.

Let us know what happens.

Melly1

surely finding 'suitable' groups should be the family's responsibility not that of the group 'A' gets foisted on, especially as this particular group is just an informal one, not a business or club and shouldn't any group, formal membership or just mates getting together, be approached first out of politeness to enquire if it is suitable for someone with LD

by charles47 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:24 am
2) Be very clear about what is and is not a reasonable level of proficiency.

Think of it as having people known for doing intricate embroidery suddenly finding someone unable to stitch a straight line expecting to be part of the group. It's not a teaching group and people normally come to it by word of mouth from friends, knowing before they come what the level of proficiency is.
Letting someone join who cannot meet that level would be 'preferential treatment' whether they had a LD or not.

As mentioned earlier, it's going to be awkward whatever happens as 'A's family's view of 'A's abilities is completely unrealistic and they've convinced 'A' and themselves that he's talented beyond belief
Praise is all well and good but should be tempered by reality

[Parsifal]

Arguably the family's suggestion that A joins a group which is not suitable to meet his needs and requires skills which he does not have, or does not have to a standard which enables him to participate in any meaningful way, is more unfair to him than to the other members of the group. Gently pointing this out to the family may make your task easier, especially if the disruptive behaviour can be directly attributed to his frustration at not being able to participate fully.

I have no idea what the activity is but I do hope that this experience will not prevent the members welcoming someone with LD who does have the required level of proficiency into the group but perhaps to prevent anyone, with or without a disability, joining and negatively impacting on the group in the future you need to consider whether you should set it up on a semi-formal basis with a minimum standard of proficiency requirement to gain membership.

[Melly1]

Ann,

yes it is probably the remit of the family to help A find a more suitable group, but if they are deluded about his ability, this might prove difficult. It might be that they have only heard of your group and hence chose it. Other members of your group might have links/knowledge of groups that would be suitable that are not readily found by those in the know.

I can see this is a problem to the group, but can't help seeing it from another perspective, what if it was my caree? How would I feel then for him and me?

Melly1

[late of this parish]

I have no idea what the activity is but I do hope that this experience will not prevent the members welcoming someone with LD who does have the required level of proficiency into the group but perhaps to prevent anyone, with or without a disability, joining and negatively impacting on the group in the future you need to consider whether you should set it up on a semi-formal basis with a minimum standard of proficiency requirement to gain membership.

anyone who has the right skills would be welcome but it seems a shame that people with an interest in common are expected to 'formalise' what is essentially a private social arrangement to avoid accusations of discrimination from someone who was never invited in the first place.
After all I wouldn't dream of walking up to a group of strangers in a cafe and plonking myself down in the middle of them expecting to be part of their activities

I can see this is a problem to the group, but can't help seeing it from another perspective, what if it was my caree? How would I feel then for him and me?
Melly1

Hopefully I'd be aware of a caree's limitations and have done some research on possible groups, checking to see if they were formal clubs or just a small informal social gathering and contacting them first so as not put the caree into situations that are completely beyond their abilities.

The disruptive/anti social behaviour isn't the result of frustration as 'A' is quite oblivious to his lack of skill, it's just his 'normal' way of doing things, viewed by his family as little eccentricities ... such as sticking a hand down inside the front of his trousers for a good 'groinal' scratch and re-arrangement of bits and pieces ..... no matter where and who he's with at the time

It'll work out right in the end, it's just trying to find the best way to do it without upsetting 'A' too much as it's not his fault his family have misled him. One possibility is not meeting for a couple of months over the summer so that it looks as if the group has finished and then re starting, but in someones kitchen and calling it a 'friends weekly coffee morning'

[Lazydaisy]

I feel like crying,reading this post.I am already responsible for my son's needs. Does this mean that I should not be encouraging him to live as normal a life as possible?Does this mean that everyone is just pretending that he can live anything like a normal life, JUST because he has Downs Syndrome?
He thinks he is the bees knees at everything he does.He lives life in the happy lane.
How do I explain to him that it is not appropriate behaviour to have a good old scratch down below when he can see a young couple almost in each others clothes walking down the road ahead of him?
How do I tell him that he has a b****y awful singing voice and nobody wants to hear it anyway, when he watches the programme with Simon Cowell on TV,to find new singers?
How do I tell him that he is nowhere near the most handsome man in the world, when my husband's brother(who does NOT have a learning disability),thinks he is Gods gift to women?
It's the family's fault again.Perhaps I should lock my son up,keep him indoors all the time.

Surely, joining any sort of a group may mean that you need to boost your competecny anyway?Not all the members are going to have the same level of skill in your group.My son can sew,he can bowl,he thinks he can do first aid, he can read, he can write,he can sing, he can dance,he can help his mother's broken heart,he can laugh,he can cry,he can inject insulin,he can test his blood sugar,he can name many different species of bird, he can track an otter,he can drive off road, he can canoe,he can name every football team,manager and player in the premier league.He does all of these things because he was taught.Only the broken heart is what he has come to through life experience,the loss of his brother.I haven't taught him the skills, I have only helped give him the confidence to learn them in the first place. His social skills are not the best in the world,BUT he always means well and his heart is in the right place. I hope that I would not put him into an inappropriate situation, but what do I do if he wants something that I do not think is a good idea?I do not always get it right.

[late of this parish]

I feel like crying,reading this post.I am already responsible for my son's needs. Does this mean that I should not be encouraging him to live as normal a life as possible?Does this mean that everyone is just pretending that he can live anything like a normal life, JUST because he has Downs Syndrome?

Encourage him by all means but in 'A's case the family are pretending to themselves that he can function in the 'Normal' world when he's not capable of it The problems will come when they die and he tries to live independently, reality will bite him hard without them smoothing his way.

Perhaps I should lock my son up,keep him indoors all the time.

No, but explaining the consequences of 'inappropriate' behaviour in public should prevent him having problems in the future

Surely, joining any sort of a group may mean that you need to boost your competecny anyway?Not all the members are going to have the same level of skill in your group.

we all have a similar skill level, that's how we got together in the first place

I hope that I would not put him into an inappropriate situation, but what do I do if he wants something that I do not think is a good idea?I do not always get it right.

As long as you've told him why it's not a good idea then you've done your best. If he decided to go ahead despite your advice then he'd have to take some responsibility for his own actions .... just like the rest of us
We're trying to spare 'A's feelings, we could just tell him the truth instead .........

[Parsifal]

I started writing this and had to save it:

The disruptive/anti social behaviour isn't the result of frustration as 'A' is quite oblivious to his lack of skill, it's just his 'normal' way of doing things, viewed by his family as little eccentricities ... such as sticking a hand down inside the front of his trousers for a good 'groinal' scratch and re-arrangement of bits and pieces ..... no matter where and who he's with at the time

I would define that type of behaviour as socially inappropriate or unacceptable rather than disruptive or anti-social, embarrassing perhaps for those who witness it but not harmful. I sometimes think that we have the problem in expecting everyone to accept or be able to conform to our social mores, not the people who break them because they do not understand them for whatever reason, and they are social mores, they are not offensive per se, they merely offend some people.


Then I came back and read your post, Lazydaisy, and I do not think, knowing you as I do, that this thread is about you and your son because you would not encourage your son to put himself in a position where his belief that he is the bees knees at something which he is not the bees knees at would be shattered, rather I believe that you would protect his belief that he is the bee knees from being damaged whilst ensuring that the things that he is good at are accessible to him.

The problem with having a disability, any kind of disability, is that we cannot always participate equally because we do not always have the capacity to participate equally however hard people try to accommodate us, there are many things which I would like to do, even have the skills to do, which are now outside my reach because I no longer have the function to make that feasible without causing major inconvenience and disruption to other members of the group and a loss of their enjoyment of the activity, some are no longer feasible however much a group might try to accommodate me.

I am able to recognise this, most of the time , and therefore protect myself from a sense of failure and disappointment by finding out the hard way. For someone else, A for example, the issue is not one of physical accommodation but one of having the skill to participate fully. By encouraging someone to engage in an activity which is outside their ability range those who are providing the encouragment are also setting that person up to feel what I am mostly, although not always, able to protect myself from, a sense of failure and the disappointment which goes with it, in a worse case scenario a loss of belief in oneself which could prevent someone doing the things for which they do have the skills or capacity to engage in, if someone decides to go ahead regardless of suggestions that the activity is unsuitable that is their choice as are the consequences.

And I think that this is what this is about, i.e. having realistic expectations along with the difficult position it puts other people in when someone chooses or is encouraged to do something beyond their capacity or, as in this case, skill level, which makes it hard for other members of a group and creates problems for all concerned and how to resolve the problems without causing further problems. And it is also about ensuring that the inability to accommodate someone with a disability is only due to a lack of the means to reasonably accommodate their disability and not due to prejudice.

[late of this parish]

..... just his 'normal' way of doing things, viewed by his family as little eccentricities ... such as sticking a hand down inside the front of his trousers for a good 'groinal' scratch and re-arrangement of bits and pieces ..... no matter where and who he's with at the time

I would define that type of behaviour as socially inappropriate or unacceptable rather than disruptive or anti-social, embarrassing perhaps for those who witness it but not harmful

that was the least offensive example of his behaviour, giving more specific ones wouldn't be fair on 'A' as they could identify him.

As you say, this thread has not to do with Lazydaisy's son who sounds as if he's getting the best upbringing possible, plenty of encouragement to try his best and care taken to avoid disappointment by not 'setting him up to fail' with things beyond his abilities

By encouraging someone to engage in an activity which is outside their ability range those who are providing the encouragment are also setting that person up to feel .. a sense of failure and the disappointment which goes with it, in a worse case scenario a loss of belief in oneself which could prevent someone doing the things for which they do have the skills or capacity to engage in ..

And I think that this is what this is about, i.e. having realistic expectations along with the difficult position it puts other people in when someone chooses or is encouraged to do something beyond their capacity or, as in this case, skill level, which makes it hard for other members of a group and creates problems for all concerned and how to resolve the problems without causing further problems.

this is what we're trying to avoid, it would be very easy just to tell 'A' the truth that he's completely useless at this particular activity and prove it to him but that would be cruel.
After all we're not a formal club/group just a few (and getting fewer due to the stress of coping with 'A' ) people who meet socially for a coffee and a natter in a cafe before heading off together and doing our hobby but all the pleasure is going out of it.

We're going to 'fold' for a couple of months, giving the quite truthful reason of the falling numbers, which will hopefully be enough time for 'A's family to find him a more suitable hobby or foist him on to someone else.
When we re-form the 'coffee and natter' will take place in our own homes where we can control who comes through our own front doors rather than in a cafe.