How to tell someone they're not good at something

[malc]

well said charles and late of this parish,the disability is not the point in question,the ability is and a disabled person should not expect to have any special treatment because they are disabled,whatever the disability may be,exactly the same as expecting special treatment because of race or age or gender.when my kids were at school i didn't push them to join the choir,the main reason being that they can't sing,and it wouldn't of made any difference if they were disabled,my children are as special to me as your children are to you,love for your kids is unconditional whether or not they are disabled,fight their corner but the right fights.

[dragonlady]

What I cannot fathom is why late of this parish didn't make it clear that the group was a select group of accomplished musicians at the start. Of course no one would expect someone without the the skill to join in those circumstances. I do object to the negative portrayal of the man in question regarding his personal skills and abilities and the assumptions made about his family. I think it would have been sufficient to say that he was not a skilled musician rather than give him a character assassination and imply that he was violent. I'm sorry but I see a lot of prejudice shining through in some posts. Also- as this part of the forum is for carers of people with LD - wouldn't this topic have been better posted elsewhere on the forum?

[Lazydaisy]

I feel the same Dragonlady.

[charles47]

I think the location of the post is ok - the original poster was seeking thoughts and ideas about how to deal with a situation they had no prior experience of, around LDs. And they wanted to deal with the situation sensitively.

Can anyone advise how to gently but firmly let someone know that they can't do something without
i) upsetting them too much
ii) falling foul of the PC brigade

The OP clearly took the point that we've been making recently about keeping information as privately as possible: give too much information and you can become readily identifiable. Happened to me a while back and before I knew it someone had tracked down who I was, where I lived and where I work. I didn't give that much information away - but it's amazing how much is out there already. Trouble is, how do you describe a situation around an emotive subject?

And it's emotive in two ways. It's certainly emotive for parents like me. I want Mike to be able to try whatever he wants to have a go at, and often there are people who consider that his very presence is unacceptable to "ordinary decent folk". Well, Mike's a decent bloke actually.

It's also emotive for the group: they are carrying out an activity that requires some measure of skill and the point of that is to create, or to recreate, a thing of beauty.

I don't know about anyone else but no amount of trying to understand an individual will make me feel positive about their actions, if those actions mean that I have lost something precious to me.

[late of this parish]

I think the location of the post is ok - the original poster was seeking thoughts and ideas about how to deal with a situation they had no prior experience of, around LDs. And they wanted to deal with the situation sensitively.

That's why I posted here, Asking people who had the most practical knowledge and experience seemed the best way

The OP clearly took the point that we've been making recently about keeping information as privately as possible: give too much information and you can become readily identifiable.

True ... and it shows that the posts on safe internet use were read

Anyway all has been resolved peacefully without upsetting 'A' which was the main aim He was told yesterday that we were stopping and bought a large coffee and slab of cake to make it like a 'farewell party' . The smile on his face went from ear to ear and he went off happy, his family (who were only trying to do the best for him) haven't been upset either which is a bonus.

[dragonlady]

Sorry Charles I disagree. This part of the forum should be SAFE for us- the carers of people with learning disability. How PATRONISING of late of this parish to think she has done it all ok by giving the man a bit of cake. I'll give her some advice- try treating adults with LD like ADULTS!!!!
She wouldn't have got herself in such a situation in the first place. She should also stop making negative assumptions and judgements
Adults and carers of people with LD have to live with this this sort of rubbish all the time. I don't personally need music groups etc to help me care - the main stress in my life is having to deal with IGNORANT people and MY role as a carer would be made much easier if IGNORANT people were kept out of this part of the forum.

Oh- I'm sorry- it seems that carers of people with LD don't have the same rights as other carers.

[malc]

dragonlady,just because an opinion isn't the same as yours it doesn't make it wrong,that's why it's a forum that works.why shouldn't people who care for people without ld's give opinions,personally i welcome other peoples opinions when i post in the dementia section whether or not they care for a spouse with alzheimers or not.

[dragonlady]

Malc this is not about my opinion- this is about prejudice. How safe is this forum when person can denigrate a man with Downs Syndrome giving clues to his name and whereabouts. His carers could very well be reading this and there are two sides to every story. No- you don't care for someone with LD - I don't know anything about your sort of caring so I don't butt in about things I know nothing about as I do not wish to be insensitive. We have laws to protect us from other people's misguided "opinions"- you would never think so though

[malc]

dragonlady,the last part of the post was about opinions and the fact you were saying that carers for ld's opinions only should count,then i said that i welcome other opinions about dementia,the first part of the post was in my opinion about a chap with downs who joined a group unsuitable for him,pushed by his parents and the person wanted to know how to get him to leave without upsetting him,as simple as that,please read my thoughts earlier in the topic.

[dragonlady]

Oh well Malc- do feel free to be offensive as you like. Come on down all you Frankie Boyle lovers and give us your opinion. Well everybody has an opinion on people with LD. I hear them all the time- it seems they and their carers are public property. Feel free to post negative and unpleasant and judgmental personal details about people on forums they and their families might see. They don't have any rights of privacy after all like real people! In fact everyone and his dog has an opinion on how we should live our lives, usually based on ignorant prejudice. Oh and don't worry about the "politically correct brigade" - they tend not too worry about us too much. Late of this parish might have made a hash of everything but i'm sure with the best possible intentions based on her ignorant prejudice. Anyone with any common sense would have simply spoken to the carer or support worker first- not spread it about on the internet- then we are public property of course. I mean how does one deal with these people- they're not like us are they? They might attack me or complain.

Actually you will find most people generally amiable and willing to co operate-. We even smile and nod nicely when inside we are thinking "stupid a**ehole" . We do that quite a lot actually!

[malc]

the last thing i was being was offensive,i was looking at this in an unbiased way,we will agree to disagree .

[Myrtle]

Can I please ask you to respect opinions different to your own.

[dragonlady]

Myrtle - excuse me - I will not respect the views of ignorant, ill informed people- they have done enough damage to us.

This forum should not promote negative, stereotype attitudes to people with Downs Syndrome and their families. This forum should not be discussing other people when it has nothing to do with anyone's caring remit.

[charles47]

Dragonlady, thanks for your PM. I will reply, but much of what I want to say fits with what is happening on the open forum. So much of my response will go here.

You refer to some people as "ignorant" and "ill-informed".

That is a judgement that you have made. There is little evidence to back it up other than the manner in which someone has tried to describe a situation without going into identifiable detail, and the manner in which some others have responded. Myself included as it turns out.

And it's also your personal judgement that this forum is now promoting stereotypical views.

Newsflash. Everyone behaves according to the stereotypes they have created for themselves. You appear to see prejudice in every statement on this particular topic. Others don't. That's because you see the situation as being a stereotypical form of discriminatory behaviour, whereas others may not have experienced it in that way. But stereotypes can be misleading, and I have lost count of the cases I've been involved in where things appeared to be in line with one set of stereotypes, only to be something completely different - or actually meet a diametrically opposed stereotype.

Take any professional who sees a parent as neurotic. Their behaviour (not listening or acknowledging a parent's concerns) entrenches the behaviours that make the parent come across as being neurotic, and the professional as disinterested. The parents try harder to be heard, more strident. And ears become even more closed. Going onto the attack at every opportunity does not change behaviour - it entrenches it.

However, we have a rule here: treat everyone's views with respect. Disagree by all means, make your own point - but don't stab people with it.

If you feel you have not been respected, please take it up with mods or with the management - Matt and Gavin. Report any specific post (click on the exclamation mark above the post) that you feel has transgressed in any way. But going onto the attack by other means is more likely to result in sanctions.

Myrtle made a fair and balanced comment - without naming anyone. It was a call for calm because the situation was becoming increasingly strident and frankly unreasonable. Frankie Boyle's comments are well documented and in fact were heavily criticised here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16197

As for your response to Myrtle, a carer came to this board seeking help because she felt her break from caring was being disrupted by another caring situation. The rights and wrongs of the situation are a separate matter - but the situation itself was perfectly valid on those grounds alone. The content of the post is another issue: it was clearly going to be controversial. That does not mean that there was discrimination or prejudice.

The young man's behaviour was mentioned. Some of it is certainly not untypical in people with LD's - my son has his own moments in terms of his groin (!) - but that doesn't make it common for people not usually in contact with people with LD's, and it certainly doesn't make the behaviour more acceptable because a person with LD's does it. A good parent tries to modify the behaviour, although success will always be patchy in that regard. A bad parent will excuse the behaviour on the grounds that "he can't help it." That is a statement I detest - and I find it far more discriminatory than some of the statements you've objected to. Because it's simply an excuse for not trying. For not pushing beyond the current limits.

Our people have so much to offer. By stretching them - in a planned and positive way, using small steps - they can grow as well as anyone else. Just more slowly.

[dragonlady]

" I belong to small music group and we have a member who has Downs Syndrome. His family mistakenly thought it was the right sort of group for his level of ability but we are unable to help support him in his social skills and to perform at our relatively high level. We do not have the skills or resources to help him and feel he will be better catered for eleswhere. We do not wish to upset him or his family. Also - are there any legal obligations we should be aware of in regard to accommodating his needs?"


If your group is funded by a local authority there may be a proviso for social inclusion in which case you would have to restructure your acitivities in order to accommodate people with special needs which might include providing a support worker if necessary. If this is not the case you will have to tell the man and his family that sadly you do not have the skills and resources to enable the man to take part in the group and advise them of an alternative. Congratulate the man on the skills he has and congratulate the carers for encouraging his skills and interest in music. Tell them how you understand how difficult it is access mainstream groups and congratulate them on their efforts to be included. Tell them how happy you would be to see the man in the future when he has progressed and offer any help or advice that you could give outside the group.
( under no circumstances give him a Mars Bar and a pat on the head)

THAT IS BEING POSITIVE AND INFORMED AND SENSITIVE!